Author Topic: What if Germany, Italy, and Japan had won WWII?  (Read 270279 times)

Offline NeppiTK

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Re: What if Germany, Italy, and Japan had won WWII?
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2007, 01:13:25 PM »
That's exactly the point, of cause every lost of civilian lives, or any attack on them are horrible,... But its an "what if" question, and so i think you have to think about stuff like that,...

Of cause it would mostly have been demoralising,... but think about the Russian troops in WWI, at the end they were so demoralised, that they refused to fight,... You can win a war by Battles and many loses of Live, or your beet the moral down, so the enemy is backing off,...!

That was the main point in bombing German Cities!

Offline RCS1

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Re: What if Germany, Italy, and Japan had won WWII?
« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2007, 10:55:00 PM »
I am not a 'hard' historian who can quote historical authorities like academic papers or primary sources, but I want to share a few thoughts and ideas.

IMHO ,the European theatre, the war wasn't won on the battlefield but on the assembly line and supply chains.

By late 1942, German technology (industrial or military) was mostly superior to anything the Allies were fielding. There was just one problem - the free Allies had much greater industrial capacities. That capacity churned out the Allies's inferior technologies in much greater numbers than anything avaliable to the Axis. By the time the Allies started serious bombing of Germany's industrial core, the writing was on the wall. The German economy could no longer supply much-needed reinforcements, supplies and support for their fielded armies.

The other Achilles heel of the 3rd Reich's war machine was a lack of manpower. During the final defense phase of the European Theatre war, how many young healthy men were left in all of Germany (let alone in the military)? Nowhere near enough to field an effective army given the manpower-intensive armies of that era.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2007, 10:56:41 PM by RCS1 »

Offline snake river rufus

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Re: What if Germany, Italy, and Japan had won WWII?
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2007, 02:13:57 AM »

Strategic bombing as practiced during WW2 was largely ineffective.  Some say that the strategic bombing campaign eventually caused the industrial collapse of Germany, but I would actually argue that it was in fact increasing levels of occupation that really slowed the production of war materiel.  When strategic bombing was at its peak, german oil production was also peaking.
I would suggest that interruption of raw materials caused more harm to hitlers war machine than damage to the structures.
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Offline Johno

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Re: What if Germany, Italy, and Japan had won WWII?
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2007, 03:11:36 AM »
Indeed - and this is something that, for all its promise, strategic bombing failed to achieve.

The ironic thing is that the use of the same aircraft as large scale tactical bombers (i.e. using them on troop formations and in direct battlefield support roles) would probably have been decisive.  But they were largely wasted bombing cities which contributed little and lost them thousands of crews.

Offline NeppiTK

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Re: What if Germany, Italy, and Japan had won WWII?
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2007, 11:28:25 AM »
By late 1942, German technology (industrial or military) was mostly superior to anything the Allies were fielding. There was just one problem - the free Allies had much greater industrial capacities. That capacity churned out the Allies's inferior technologies in much greater numbers than anything available to the Axis. By the time the Allies started serious bombing of Germany's industrial core, the writing was on the wall. The German economy could no longer supply much-needed reinforcements, supplies and support for their fielded armies.

The other Achilles heel of the 3rd Reich's war machine was a lack of manpower. During the final defense phase of the European Theatre war, how many young healthy men were left in all of Germany (let alone in the military)? Nowhere near enough to field an effective army given the manpower-intensive armies of that era.

Right by that,... But by late 1942 Hitler and his generals nearly made any ´fatal´ mistake,... at that point germany had nearly already lost the war, but Propaganda worked still pretty well. Hitlers strategy to hold ground by "last man and last bullet" and the will to please this order made many Generals continue this war.

Second thing you mentioned. supplies is a big point,... And the end of ´41 soem Generals told Hitler that the war against russia can´t be won anymore,.. not as "Blitzkrieg", and even less by fighting a long hard war,... (Only way they could have won would have been Capturing Moskau, Leningrad, uniting with Finnish Troops in the North and uniting turkish troops in the south, by late ´41,.. none of that EVER happend...) So when he realized that he went over to his secon Goal for the war: Kill all European Jews! so in January 1942 they had the "Wansee Conference" in which they tried to find the "best way" to accomplish that mission. Since they started shooting houndred of thousands in poland and first occupied russian territory, German Military (and Science) was looking for a way to kill thousands at a time, which wasn´t to hard for the Mourderes! (If you shoot someone you feel resposible for it, doesn´t matter if it was an order or not...! YOU SHOT! and shooters were full of blood,brain- and bone parts, ´cause the victims were shot from short distance... mostly under 2meter)

So germans blocked their own supplies for that mission. In at the end of ´43 nearly 70% Trains of the "reichsbahn" were assigned to get Victims to the Concentration Camps,... even if there where enough supplies, they couldn´t get it to the front in time!

Any if you look at the society of germany in early 1930s most German Jews would have been "happy" to fight for Germany,... imagine hitler hadn´t killed 6 million (its between 5,2 and 7,1 million so 6 Million is the agreed Number.) but used maby 2million of them as soldiers! And the other 5 million people that where shot or killed in Concentration Camps,.. same with them at least one milliopn could have fought for him (which other 5 million u ask? :Homosexuals, Gypsys, Russians, Democrates, Communist, people of "worthless Races)

So Hitler only really could have won if his mission to get room in the east would have been realized by 1942. After stalingrad at the end of 42 the germans were retreating. And in ´44 after the invasion it was way to late. But since Allied Stragedy failed in a couple of operations the war countinued a hole year!

Imagine Strategics for Operations "Market-Garden" would have listened to the reports, that big Tank Units are in the Area of Arnheim,... at the very least live life of more than 8.000 allied soldiers could have been saved (and not spend can i say worthless,... i do think so!)

Cheers

Offline DonPMitchell

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Re: What if Germany, Italy, and Japan had won WWII?
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2007, 09:32:45 PM »
I think there are a lot of myths about "German superiority".  They were not close to having an atomic bomb, and some people think Werner Heisenberg sabatoged the effort from within.  They fumbled around trying to build a heavy-water reactor, and it was never operated, probalby never actually fueled.  There's just now way they could have undertaken the industrial effort to enrich uranium during the war.  Where would they have gotten the energy even.  Remember, the Oak Ridge enrichment facility was built near hydroelectric dams, because it actually used something like 5 percent of all the electricity generated in the USA.

In terms of rockets, you can see my comments here:

http://www.mentallandscape.com/S_GIRD.htm

What allowed the Germans to build the V-2 was more about official permission and allocation of resources.  Before about 1938, they were not as advanced as Goddard or the Russians in terms of rocket technology.  Von Braun's early work was really pretty crude.  But Russia and the USA failed to allocate resources to large missile production.  Most of the effort in Russia was placed on rocket-assisted take-off of airplanes and to cruise missiles.  There is some evidence that the V-1 was helped by stolen Russian plans for their rocket-plane 318.
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Offline jdbenner

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Re: What if Germany, Italy, and Japan had won WWII?
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2007, 03:41:20 PM »
I think there are a lot of myths about "German superiority".  They were not close to having an atomic bomb, and some people think Werner Heisenberg sabatoged the effort from within.  They fumbled around trying to build a heavy-water reactor, and it was never operated, probalby never actually fueled.  There's just now way they could have undertaken the industrial effort to enrich uranium during the war.  Where would they have gotten the energy even.

I believe that for WWII the atomic bomb was a dead end.  Yes, the atomic bomb is the most devastating weapon to date, but weapon development in the middle of a war is rarely usefull.  The United States barley finished it's atomic bombs in time for the end of the war.  Think of what Five Billion 1940's dollars, and all the manpower that went in to the Manhattan project could have done if directed toward existing weapons. 

For that matter given the initial production rate of atomic bombs.  Would having the bomb production starting in the early part of the war have given the US a decisive advantage?  After all destroying one more city per month have much of a difference?  More cities have been over run by infantry than have been nuked (to date). 

Having many Nukes would have definitely been decisive; but was developing an entirely new weapon for the future a sound decision when one is trying to win a war in the present?
Joshua D. Benner Associate in Arts and Sciences in General Science

Offline Satanic Mechanic

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Re: What if Germany, Italy, and Japan had won WWII?
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2007, 06:20:25 PM »
I believe that for WWII the atomic bomb was a dead end.  Yes, the atomic bomb is the most devastating weapon to date, but weapon development in the middle of a war is rarely usefull. 
Weapons development is always useful.  Many new technologies and improvements in technology happened during the war.  Believe it or not, the atomic bomb saved the Japanese from being wiped off the face of the planet.  MacArthur had plans drawn up to invade the Japanese Islands and was expecting millions of deaths on both sides.  The use of nerve gas was also considered.
The Japanese were fanatical at the time.  The Emperor was the "Son of Heaven", the equivalent of Jesus Christ.  If the Emperor told the people to fight to the very end, the Japanese would.  Look at not only the Kamikaze but the droves of Japanese soldiers running into oncoming fire with their Banzai charges.  That is how hard it would be with civilians doing the same thing.  The loss of live to pacify the four main islands would be horrendous.
The atomic bombs did eliminate two cities and their populations but it saved a nation and its people from obiliteration.

Just my $0.02

Offline jdbenner

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Re: What if Germany, Italy, and Japan had won WWII?
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2007, 04:12:59 PM »
Weapons development is always useful.  Many new technologies and improvements in technology happened during the war.

Yes, That is true. Atomic power, large Rockets, jets and computers just to name a few.  However, the V2 came to late to change the wars outcome, so did the jet fighter plane, the guided anti aircraft missile,the long endurance submarine (Hydrogen peroxide/ Diesel) and even the Atomic Bomb.  While using the atomic bomb (since we allready had it) saved lives on both sides.  The outcome of the war was allready decided by the time the Bomb was ready.


  Believe it or not, the atomic bomb saved the Japanese from being wiped off the face of the planet.  MacArthur had plans drawn up to invade the Japanese Islands and was expecting millions of deaths on both sides.  The use of nerve gas was also considered.
The Japanese were fanatical at the time.  The Emperor was the "Son of Heaven", the equivalent of Jesus Christ.  If the Emperor told the people to fight to the very end, the Japanese would.  Look at not only the Kamikaze but the droves of Japanese soldiers running into oncoming fire with their Banzai charges.  That is how hard it would be with civilians doing the same thing.  The loss of live to pacify the four main islands would be horrendous.
The atomic bombs did eliminate two cities and their populations but it saved a nation and its people from obiliteration.

Just my $0.02



Yes, You are right.  Given the conditions at the end of the war and our posesion of the Bomb.  Its use saved lives.  However, if the Japanese were not worn down by four years of fighting, I believe that at least Dosans of bombs would have been required rather than two.  Also, would five billion 1940's Dollars spent in the earlier in the war have broken the Japanese will faster by insuring earlier and more frequent defeats?  And last of all The Bomb was a gamble it nearly failed to be completed in time for the wars end. What if it had been further delayed by even six months?  A better wartime investment would have been improving existing equipment or even finishing old nearly finished programs, rather than creating a whole new industry from scratch.

That Is my $0.02
Joshua D. Benner Associate in Arts and Sciences in General Science

Offline NeppiTK

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Re: What if Germany, Italy, and Japan had won WWII?
« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2008, 02:57:23 PM »
While using the atomic bomb (since we allready had it) saved lives on both sides.  The outcome of the war was allready decided by the time the Bomb was ready.

The A-Bomb didn´t save any lives! it killed houndreds of thousand on one side, and not a single one on the other side. They refused to take the surrender so they could drop the bomb and show everbody how big and strong they are! You do say it yourself, the war was already decided..! and it was one of the biggest warcrimes to drop those two bombs! there was no need to do that! murdered innocent people for nothing, just like they Nazis did and the Allied bombers over german cities!

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: What if Germany, Italy, and Japan had won WWII?
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2008, 03:23:03 PM »
The A-Bomb didn´t save any lives! it killed houndreds of thousand on one side, and not a single one on the other side.

I think you should put a little more thought into that. If the US had not dropped the bombs in Japan the war would have continued much longer and would have involved direct combat between both sides. Many Japanese and American soldiers would have died if an invasion of Japan had been attempted, and more Japanese civilians would have also died. So even though the atomic bombs were horrible, the alternative was worse.
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Offline NeppiTK

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Re: What if Germany, Italy, and Japan had won WWII?
« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2008, 03:42:25 PM »
The A-Bomb didn´t save any lives! it killed houndreds of thousand on one side, and not a single one on the other side.

I think you should put a little more thought into that. If the US had not dropped the bombs in Japan the war would have continued much longer and would have involved direct combat between both sides. Many Japanese and American soldiers would have died if an invasion of Japan had been attempted, and more Japanese civilians would have also died. So even though the atomic bombs were horrible, the alternative was worse.
and again you proof, that you don´t really read my posts....the japanese tried to surrender at least 3 times before the bomb was dropped! You don´t need to put much thought into it to see, that it was an unnecassary crime!

MORE civilans would have died? ... i think YOU need to put more thought into words like that...
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 03:52:42 PM by NeppiTK »

Offline Bob B.

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Re: What if Germany, Italy, and Japan had won WWII?
« Reply #57 on: April 09, 2008, 03:54:43 PM »
and again you proof, that you don´t really read my posts....the japanese tried to surrender at least 3 times before the bomb was dropped! You don´t need to put much thought into it to see, that it was an unnecassary crime!

With the Potsdam declaration of July 26, 1945 Japan was told to "surrender of suffer prompt and utter destruction".  Japan rejected the Potsdam declaration on July 29.  The atomic bombs were dropped August 6 and 9.  Japan finally advised the Allies of their surrender by sending a cable through the Swiss embassy in Washington on August 13.

« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 12:27:28 PM by Bob B. »

Offline Bob B.

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Re: What if Germany, Italy, and Japan had won WWII?
« Reply #58 on: April 09, 2008, 03:56:55 PM »
MORE civilans would have died? ... i think YOU need to put more thought into words like that...

If there had been an invasion of the Japanese homeland, then yes, it is most likely more civilians would have died than were killed in the atmoic bombings.

Offline NeppiTK

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Re: What if Germany, Italy, and Japan had won WWII?
« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2008, 04:11:36 PM »
and again you proof, that you don´t really read my posts....the japanese tried to surrender at least 3 times before the bomb was dropped! You don´t need to put much thought into it to see, that it was an unnecassary crime!

With the Potsdam declaration of July 26, 1945 Japan was told to "surrender of suffer prompt and utter destruction".  Japan rejected the Potsdam declaration on July 29.  The atomic bombs were dropped August 5 and 9.  Japan finally advised the Allies of their surrender by sending a cable through the Swiss embassy in Washington on August 13.

Sure, but 8 month before thats the US President rejected a surrender...and shortly after the declaration of potsdam he tried to make contact via the schwedish King it was also rejected!
And the US-Gov didn´t even consider a "Test-Bomb" or demonstration of its power,.. no they just went on and killed civilians with it... Like when they bombed Tokio,... about 100000 died there too