Author Topic: Buzz Aldrin's race into space  (Read 1199037 times)

Offline Ottawan

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Re: re: Blast Off
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2003, 08:00:00 PM »
If you need inspiration, and that comes from those interested in seeing the game updated and re-released then count me in!!!

I was addicted tothe game back when I ran Windows 3.1 and had no problem with DOS games.

My wish list for what I would like to see is pretty extensive, but includes quarterly, instead of semi-annual turns, differentiation of types of lunar probes (ie impact, orbiter and soft-lander) and of course, the ability to closer emulate how history occurred.,

Don't get me started . . . . . . .  

Man must explore . . . and this is exploration at its greatest

Dave Scott, Apollo 15

Offline madmax

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Blast Off
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2003, 08:00:00 PM »
Instead of quarterly turns I still use semi annual turns, but I allow up to three launches per launch pad, as long as there is at least 1 unused month between launches, that is to say if you launch in January you can not launch again, on that pad, til March. You also get to choose the exact month for your launch, but the R+D is calculated per month as well, so that if you launch in January your hardware will not be as ready as it would be if you waited till June. Of course you still have to try to beat the other guy.":evil"
One thing that has really surprised me is how relativily easy writting the AI has turned out to be. The game is fairly straight forward in the options available to each side, the real chalange is in resource allocation. So all I had to do was have the computer randomly choose a grand strategy, wieghing towards those with the best chance of working, then have it react in it's budget allocation to the needs forced by the grand strategy by using some simple heuristics. No real option searching needed.
I've always felt, though could never prove, that the AI in the original game cheats in some way. Mine does not cheat, but I still have a hard time beating it myself, unless it chooses a really bad strategy.
The game is currently playable up to the first manned orbit, which may not sound like much, but it has required the laying in of all the ground work that more involved missions will build on. Also the first orbit can currently be achieved with the Mercury or Dynasoar for the US, or the Vostock or Spiral for the Ruskie.
I could go on...

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Offline Ottawan

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Re: Blast Off
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2003, 09:00:00 PM »
Please do!

Man must explore . . . and this is exploration at its greatest

Dave Scott, Apollo 15

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Blast Off
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2003, 09:00:00 PM »
I never played the original game so I don't know how much help I can be with your new game. It definately sounds like fun though. "<img">  



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Offline rcable1

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Re: Blast Off
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2003, 10:00:00 PM »
I've never had the opportunity to even see the game, but would love to.

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Offline madmax

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Blast Off
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2003, 02:00:00 PM »
I'm getting together some screen shots of my game and BARIS so that you can see some of what I'm up to.
I'll probably post them on Monday, however I'm not entirely clear on how to add images. When the "Add Reply" screen first comes up it shows buttons for adding various items to the text, but after a few seconds the buttons disappear. What's up with that?

I am writting Blast Off in C++ on Windows 2000. I don't know for sure if it will run on XP, I've heard XP has some strange behaviours. I am writting it as a Windows GUI program though, so theoretically it should work in XP.

In the BARIS game the payloads and wieghts were based on the original board game "Liftoff", which set the weights purely for play balance. The hardware capabilities in BARIS have little relation to the actual vehicles, they are just arranged to provide play balance.
I have done a fair amount of research to find the actual payload capacities of the various launch vehicles and the actual wieghts of the equipment. Blast Off is designed to reflect these differences. This does however mean that the Soviets have a marked advantage during the early years (the R7 ICBM had a huge lift capacity compared to anything the US could field until the Saturn series). On the other hand once the US brings the Saturns on line the Soviets are pretty much beat, even the N1 was only theoretically capable of about 75-80% of the lift of a Saturn V, and the Soviet capsules were, on average, a lot heavier than the American counterpart.
While this is historical, it does take a lot away from the tension of the game. I am trying to compensate for this Russian disadvantage by letting the Russian always see everything that is going on in the US program, but not letting the American see much, if anything, about the Soviet program. NASA's activities and plans were always public record, and Soviet activities were always Top Secret. However I doubt this is really enough to give the Russian player an equal chance. Any opinions on how to handle this balance problem?

Using the historical lift capacities and weights has also allowed me to add the early Lunar satellite missions. The first Russian Luna spacecraft and the early American Pioneer probes were about the same weight and size as the Sputniks and Explorers respectively, so I allow the use of the R7 (with Ye upper stage) and Atlas to send  Sputnik (representing the early Lunas) and Explorer (representing the early Pioneers) on Lunar impact or Lunar flyby missions as was done historically. These missions are not worth as many points as when they are done with the later Ranger and Cosmos probes. Also the larger probes are able to do Lunar Orbit missions as well. I haven't added the soft landers yet.

Blast Off can take a lot longer to play to reach the same point as it does in BARIS because of the extra details I've added. I don't mind, but how do others feel about lengthening the game?

I would definately like to hear any and all suggestions and wish lists, however long.

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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Blast Off
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2003, 03:00:00 PM »
I'm not sure why the buttons for inserting images and links etc. are disappearing on you... make sure the "ezCodes" radio button is checked, not "Plain Text".

To add an image you first have to have it hosted on the net somewhere. Most (if not all) internet service providers give their users a small amout of webspace for personal websites... they don't always make it clear on how to go about using that webspace though, so you might have to contact tech support.

It sounds like you've really thought this game through. I'm impressed. I agree that it has to be balanced so that it's possible for either side to win. How to go about doing that without changing the historical accuracy is hard to say. I'll give it some thought, but I don't know if I can come up with a solution.

I suppose you could have random accidents that delay the American space program, or have the Russian scientists come up with ways to lighten the payload or improve their rocket. It would stray from history, but maybe that really is the only way Russia could have gone to the Moon.

There shouldn't be a problem running it in Windows XP since Win2000 and XP are both newer variations of Windows NT. XP has problems with older programs from Win95 and earlier, especially with DOS programs... which is probably why I couldn't get BARIS to work on my computer.


Kel



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Offline madmax

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Blast Off
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2003, 06:00:00 PM »
In BARIS the first side to have a successful manned moon mission wins. BARIS also keeps track of points scored for accomplishing missions along the way, but this is really irrelevant for winning. You can win with the first successful moon landing even if you're way behind in points.
In Blast Off I estimate the Russians have something like an average of 25-30% chance of getting to the moon first, especially if they get lucky or some really bad luck befalls the American.
One possibility I've been thinking of is extending the game to 1975 no matter what the outcome of the moon race, adding in Salyut and Skylab space stations, and giving fairly large points for successful long duration space station stays. The game then is determined by points scored rather than just first to the moon. This should give the Soviet a better chance to win the game, but is not nearly so dramatic as the sudden death first to the moon victory conditions. It would also result in a lot longer game length.
I'm undecided as to whether this would be worth it or not, any opinions?

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Offline Ottawan

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Re: Blast Off
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2003, 10:00:00 PM »
I think that is an EX-cellent idea!

For several reasons; when I first played the game I became addicted but felt a let down at the conclusion. As a student of space history, I wanted the game to go on. The idea of including Skylab and Salyut has great merit in that the points accrued would definately benefit the Russian side. Landing on the moon was a "stated" national goal of the US, not of the USSR, and though the US would garner many points for accomplishing the goal, after Skylab, there was no US presence in space for 6 years. The Soviets owned LEO. Continuing the game to 1975(Apollo-Soyuz) would allow for space station missions and perhaps for more and varied planetary probes to the outer planets.

As to your earlir topic of booster capability and the huge Soviet lead at first, so what. Should not the simulation reflect history? Granted the American side would catch up eventually but that would make any scenario more fun to play from either side. Try to maintain a huge lead, or try to catch up. Both would be challenging!

Keep talking . . . . . .

Bill.

Man must explore . . . and this is exploration at its greatest

Dave Scott, Apollo 15

Offline madmax

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Blast Off
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2003, 07:00:00 PM »
Worked on it some over the weekend, fixed a couple of bugs, reorganized a screen to reduce clutter, etc. Don't really have a lot of time these days to work on it, but I'll do what I can.
What I think I'll do is try to fix as many bugs as I can, then burn it on to a CD and take it over to Interplay's offices and show it to Rusty Buchart, who was the producer on the original game. He told me once that it was his favorite subject for a game that he had done, so he might be interested. It may be a few weeks before I can do this though, we'll see.
It doesn't look like I'll be able to put screen shots on here for several reasons.

One thing I would like to talk about is my approach to hardware safety and mission step safety, which is quite different from BARIS.
In BARIS (for those who have not played the game) each piece of hardware has a safety rating of 1 -100. When you start a program the hardware starts with a low value, then increases as a result of research die rolls by your scientists, and decreases as a result of failures during missions. There are some additional rules regarding research ceilings and such. The actual safety rating is known to the player, and can be quite volitile. There is also an effect whereby a failure of a piece of hardware during an unmanned mission has no effect on the hardware safety, but the exact same failure during a manned flight results in the hardware being reduced to a miniscule safety rating such as 5%. This can essentially end the game for the player because it takes a very long time to get a piece of hardwares safety up again, and time is something that is always short in the game.
I take a different approach in Blast Off. Each piece of hardware still has a safety rating of 1-100, but the actual number is never known by the player. The player only knows what his engineers' current estimate of safety (based on past performance) is. The engineers will also let the player know how many known defects, not yet resolved, there are in the hardware. The estimated safety can be way off. The really big difference in my game is that the real safety never decreases, just increases as your engineers fix defects, if your engineers are doing a good job. When the hardware fails (either during ground tests or flight) this results in more known defects for your engineers to fix. This means that unmanned flights become very important to help discover defects, and failures (unmanned or manned) will no longer destroy your chances in the game, as often happens in BARIS.

The other design feature that I have significantly changed is the way mission types affect safety. In BARIS there is a penalty applied to each step of a mission depending on whether you have successfully completed prerequisite missions or not. For example if you have completed no other mission types and attempt a manned lunar landing there is a 40% penalty applied to each step of the landing mission. Strangely the penalties only apply to manned missions. This results in some inconsistency. Suppose I have developed the Saturn V and Apollo spacecraft and LEM and have done many Earth Orbit missions with the equipment. I then see the Ruskie has completed a manned lunar orbit and lander test ":eek" . I decide to press ahead with a landing, skipping lunar flyby and lunar orbit LEM test. There is then something like a 6 or 7 point safety penalty applied (I don't have the game with me right now) to all steps of my Lunar landing mission. But does it really make sense that my launch is now suddenly more dangerous? After all I have done many many launches before, including several with these same set of equipment now on the pad?
In Blast Off I keep track of the current penalty for each type of step (countdown, launch, orbital insertion, etc), regardless of what mission is being attempted. For example one may start the game with a 10 point penalty for launches. After a time this penalty will be reduced, as a result of hard experience, and then any launch step, even if you skip several missions directly to a Lunar Landing mission, will have a lesser penalty. The only way to reduce a step penalty is by attempting the step. Thus the actual lunar landing step can be quite hazardous the first time it is attempted, so unmanned landings are a must (unless you don't mind dead 'nauts).

These changes are the real meat of my attempt to reduce the degree to which the game is ruled by blind luck, and to try to reward careful planning to a greater degree than the original game does.

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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Blast Off
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2003, 10:00:00 PM »
I think it's a good idea to increase the risk if you skip certain missions.

For example, NASA originally intended Apollo 8 to be a test of the lunar module in earth orbit, but since the LM wasn't ready and the Russians were rumoured to be planning a lunar flyby NASA decided to send Apollo 8 to orbit the moon... without a LM. This was very risky because if an Apollo 13 type of accident had occurred during Apollo 8 the crew would not have had a "lifeboat" and almost certainly would have died.

Also, without the Apollo 10 mission to test the LM in lunar orbit and to practice landing approaches the Apollo 11 landing would have been more risky.

On the other hand, political stunts like sending the first woman into space did not affect the countries ability to go to the moon, so skipping those kinds of missions wouldn't have affected safety in any way.

I think there should be two types of missions, "public relations stunts" and "technically important objectives". You can skip the stunts without hurting your chances of getting to the moon, but skipping the technical missions is risky.

Maybe the PR stunts could earn the player bonus points while the technical objectives are more important to the success of the space program.


Kel



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Offline Ottawan

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Re: Blast Off
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2003, 11:00:00 PM »
My thinking exactly!!!

One of the reasons, in my opinion, that the Soviets never really got their moon program into high gear was Krushchev's insistance on space "firsts"

He wanted and got, the first man in space, the first woman in space, the first dual and triple missions, the first full day in space, the first two and three man flights, and the first man to walk in space. . . .

In game terms these should count for prestige points, and would account for a huge Soviet lead at first.

The resources spent in acquiring these "firsts" hurt the Soviet program in the long run as they fell behind the Americans in the rendezvous and docking missions necessary for a lunar landing reflected in the R&D required to develop those programs!

The more I hear of this the more I like what you are doing!  

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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Blast Off
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2003, 12:00:00 AM »
If Interplay allows you to develope your game I would love to make it available to download from my website... perhaps as a demo version.

It sure sounds like a lot of fun!



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Offline rcable1

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Re: Blast Off
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2003, 06:00:00 AM »
Would like to make it available as a download from Man and The Moon also. Hope Interplay is interested.

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Offline madmax

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Blast Off: mission skipping
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2003, 02:00:00 PM »
The problem (in my opinion) with the way BARIS handles the penalties for skipping missions is that the penalty applies to all steps of a mission, including the steps that you have previously perfected. Perhaps I should explain in a bit more detail how missions are resolved for those that have not played the game. Each mission is composed of a series of steps. For example a satellite mission has a "launch" step, an "orbital insertion" step, and a "power on" step. A lunar landing mission can have over 20 seperate steps. During each step a random number from 1-100 is generated and compared to the safety rating of the relevant piece of hardware. If the number is larger than the safety rating the hardware fails and the mission is a failure.
What I object to is that when skipping missions the penalties apply to, for example, launch as much as any other step in the mission.
For example the game applies a 5 point penalty to duration (longer than a day) missions until you successful complete one. So now my launch vehicle, which I have used successfully on many launches, that has exactly the same payload in it that it has had on previous launches, is suddenly more likely to blow up on the pad than it was previously, just because at a much later point in the mission my 'nauts are going to stay in orbit longer than previously?
What's really ridiculous is that BARIS applies these penalties to manned but not identical unmanned missions.
On many occasions I have carried out several unmanned Vostok orbital missions successfully (with no penalty applied by the game) resulting in the highest possible safety rating for the Vostok. I then put a cosmonaut in the vehicle. Exact same capsule, exact same rocket, exact same mission, but BARIS now applies a 6 point penalty to all steps on the mission. Not surprisingly it blows up on the pad. ("Nyet comrade nyet, do not push any buttons! Keep your hands off the controls! Do not touch the big red button!")":">  Are the space agencies intentionaly recruiting idiots? In fact Gagarin was ordered to not touch anything.
In Blast Off I keep track of penalties for each step. At the start of the game something like a 10 point penalty applies to each step. Whenever that step is carried out on any mission the same penalty applies. Then once the penalty is reduced the reduced penalty applies to all uses of that step in any mission. So if you have perfected your launch procedure you can be fairly sure that any launch step will be no more dangerous than the launch vehicle being used. If you skip missions the result is that those STEPS that have not been carried out previously are still very dangerous, but those steps that have had the necessary procedure ironed out on previous missions are less dangerous.
In the example of a lunar landing that is done without previous lunar orbit and LEM test missions the result is that the launch and all the earth orbit steps are at a reduced danger (been there, done that), but those steps that take place around the moon are more dangerous (have a larger penalty applied) due to the planned procedures not having been previously tested.
I believe this actually represents reality better and results in greater benifits to a careful incremental approach to mission planning than does BARIS, and hopefully results in the game being less dominated by luck and doing a better job of rewarding careful planning.

As for headline grabbing missions, there are events in the original board game "Lift Off", orders from Moscow/Washington, that require certain missions to be carried out or suffer a budget cut. This was not properly implemented in BARIS. The orders are displayed, but can be ignored at no penalty. In Blast Off I am working on implementing these orders as intended in Lift Off, that is the order gives the player a time limit to carry out the 'stunt', and if you fail you suffer a budget cut.":\"  

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