New Saturn 5s

[Big RI Joe]

Few will argue against the notion that heavy-lift vehicles are expensive to develop and operate. How expensive, though, is something often overlooked. According to the Encyclopedia Astronautica, the cost to develop the Saturn 5 was nearly $7.5 billion—in 1966 dollars. When adjusted for inflation, that price becomes a staggering $43 billion in 2004. The Saturn 5 was also not cheap to operate: the same source pegs the launch cost of a single Saturn 5 at $431 million in 1967, or over $2.4 billion a launch in 2004 dollars.

[Big RI Joe]

But why were there no plans to build more?  The story I’ve heard is that aerospace contractors were hesitant get involved in Space Shuttle development while the Saturn V was lurking about as a potential competitor.  When the decision was made to go with the Shuttle a message had to be sent showing NASA’s commitment to the program.  That message consisted of the destruction of the capability to further produce the Saturn V.

I think the simple answer is because Apollo was phased out. Look, back in 1969, there was very little political support for a manned Martian landing. Nixon basically had three choices: 1) eliminate manned spaceflight and concentrate on unmanned spaceflight, 2) build a "reusuable" space vehicle or 3) go to Mars with men. The most politically expedient decision was to build the Shuttle. I don't think there was a "potential competitor" because there were no funded programs that required a heavy-lift vehicle. No private company will build a spacecraft or launch vehicle IF THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY OF MAKING A PROFIT!!!!!!!. Even today, there is no economic incentive for a private company to build the hardware for a Mars mission. At best, private companies can build and fly comsat hardware because there is money to be made. Please don't count space tourism. America and the world are looking at a genuine energy crisis that will shake the world economy to it's foundation. I doubt there will be many calls for private spaceflight when gas in the USA is $4 a gallon; and friend, that's coming.....

[madmax]

I doubt there will be many calls for private spaceflight when gas in the USA is $4 a gallon; and friend, that's coming.....

It's already rapidly approaching $7 a gallon in Europe.

[Bob B.]

I think the simple answer is because Apollo was phased out. Look, back in 1969, there was very little political support for a manned Martian landing. Nixon basically had three choices: 1) eliminate manned spaceflight and concentrate on unmanned spaceflight, 2) build a "reusuable" space vehicle or 3) go to Mars with men. The most politically expedient decision was to build the Shuttle. I don't think there was a "potential competitor" because there were no funded programs that required a heavy-lift vehicle.

I still don’t see anything in your answer that eliminates the possibility Saturn V machinery was ordered destroyed to assure production couldn’t be resurrected.  Yes, there were no funded programs requiring a heavy lift vehicle.  Yes, in a few years the Saturn V production line would become obsolete anyway.  So if you’re not planning to use the Saturn V anymore then why not order the jigs destroyed now just to put at ease the minds of those concerned about the possible return of the Saturn V.

I’m not saying this is what happened, but I don’t see anything in your timeline that says it didn’t.  The only reason I haven’t conceded the point is because I’ve been told by someone I consider a reliable source that it did in fact happen.

[Big RI Joe]

I doubt there will be many calls for private spaceflight when gas in the USA is $4 a gallon; and friend, that's coming.....

It's already rapidly approaching $7 a gallon in Europe.

Check this out: www.peakoil.org

[Big RI Joe]

Check this out: www.peakoil.org

Meanwhile, nearly two-thirds of 1,000 adults responding to an Associated Press-AOL News 48-state poll released last week said rising gas prices will cause them financial hardship over the next six months. More than a third said the hardship will be serious.

[Big RI Joe]

It's already rapidly approaching $7 a gallon in Europe.

Unfortunately, that's like comparing apples and oranges. More than half of that $7 is taken up with a value added tax, i.e. a national sales tax. The person paying almost $7 a gallon in Europe pays no social security tax, no fereral or state  income tax, has free medical care, etc. That's not the story in the good ole US of A. If gas goes to $7 a gallon here, I'll be paying 175 a week for gas. With gas at $7 a gallon, you'll be paying a minimum of $6 a gallon for home heating oil. Figuring on 900 gallons a year, you'll be paying over $5,000 just to heat your home.If gas gets to $4 a gallon, the US of A's economy will be in the tank. REad THE LONG EMERGENCY by James Kuntsler.......it'll keep you awake nights, I guarentee

[Satanic Mechanic]

BigRIJoe,
Actually many of the European nations pay an income tax and they do have their own version of social security.  Remember that these countries are socialist and universal health care is not cheap.

SM

[spacecat27]

Having worked at The Cape during that era- I can say that there was NEVER any sense of "competition" between Saturns and the Shuttle.  The Shuttle was simply seen as the next step to take in space.... and the political climate and who ordered what stopped or destroyed is better a discussion for the History forum rather than here in the Future forum.   

I've no doubt we'll see US gasoline go to $4/gal in the not too distant future, but that will not have much affect on space tourism, since the passengers willing & able to pay hundreds of thousands or a million for a ticket are not the sort who worry about fuel prices.  In this part of Florida, I'm surrounded by the 'filthy rich' who are pushing yachts around which cost more than the average American makes in a year just to fill their diesel tanks...... Hummers & Escalades are still selling like hotcakes.... they just don't care.

[Big RI Joe]

Having worked at The Cape during that era- I can say that there was NEVER any sense of "competition" between Saturns and the Shuttle.  The Shuttle was simply seen as the next step to take in space.... and the political climate and who ordered what stopped or destroyed is better a discussion for the History forum rather than here in the Future forum.   

I've no doubt we'll see US gasoline go to $4/gal in the not too distant future, but that will not have much affect on space tourism, since the passengers willing & able to pay hundreds of thousands or a million for a ticket are not the sort who worry about fuel prices.  In this part of Florida, I'm surrounded by the 'filthy rich' who are pushing yachts around which cost more than the average American makes in a year just to fill their diesel tanks...... Hummers & Escalades are still selling like hotcakes.... they just don't care.

If gas reaches $4 a gallon, you'll see the second American Revolution

[Big RI Joe]

BigRIJoe,
Actually many of the European nations pay an income tax and they do have their own version of social security.  Remember that these countries are socialist and universal health care is not cheap.

SM

Thank you for replying, SM....Now please, could you direct me to a website so I could see that information summarized?

[LunarOrbit]

I would prefer you started a new thread if we aren't going to be talking about the Saturn V. Thanks.

[Satanic Mechanic]

Thank you for replying, SM....Now please, could you direct me to a website so I could see that information summarized?

You can look up the info using Google under indivdual taxes in countries of Europe.  I know these things because I work at a company where quite a few people come from Europe and have told me about their economic situations.  My in-laws are from Germany where everything is socialized and I can tell you a lot things about that country; like you can own a house but you cannot own land so you pay rent to the state.  The only country in Europe that is the least socialist is Portugal in my opinion.
If you wish to debate me country by country in Europe, I am open to that.  My info on these countries are England, France, Italy (most hurt by socialism), Germany, Spain and Portugal.

I see you have "RI" in your name.  I take it you are from Rhode Island?  I have a lot of family there.  Rhode Island in my opinion is two steps away from socialism while Taxachuesetts to the north of you is one step to it.  Massachuesetts is the most corrupt state in the union.

SM

[Satanic Mechanic]

I would prefer you started a new thread if we aren't going to be talking about the Saturn V. Thanks.

Sorry LunarOrbit,
I pulled a Tomcat!

SM

[Bob B.]

My source for the Saturn V information is Jay Windley, a mechanical engineer and Apollo historian.  Jay is as knowledgeable about the Apollo program as anyone I’ve ever encountered.  His main thing is combating the alleged “moon-landing hoax”, which he does with his Web site clavius.org and by participating in several Web forums.  He is also a registered member here though he doesn’t post often.

Jay has mentioned the Saturn V thing several times, including this thread at the Apollohoax forum.  Here is one of Jay’s (JayUtah) quotes:

There is a conspiracy there, of sorts.

The Saturn V was specifically dumped in favor of the space shuttle. The Saturn V was seen as mainstream technology, albeit the pinnacle of it. The shuttle was seen as a departure from convention and therefore risky. The shuttle contractors were obviously worried about competing with the Saturn V. So for confidence reasons, as well as budgetary reasons, the Saturn V program was terminated. And I mean terminated. The plans were archived and the tooling was ordered dismantled. This was to send a signal to the shuttle contractors that NASA wouldn't "secretly" maintain production of the Saturn V. About half of Apollo's budget was for Saturn V development. This was sold to Congress on the presumption that it would be the heavy-lift booster family even after Apollo. So you can imagine how reluctant Congress was to approve "yet another" entire launch vehicle family just ten years after approving the Mother of All Rockets.

If you think this is wrong perhaps I should PM Jay at Apollohoax and ask him to come here to discuss it.


Edit to add:
I just sent Jay a private message so hopefully he'll be joining the discussion.  I'm heading out of town for the next couple days so I won't be participating again until Sunday at the earliest.