Author Topic: Pentagon Space Program  (Read 75307 times)

Offline madmax

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Pentagon Space Program
« on: January 19, 2004, 02:40:25 PM »
I really don't know much about this subject, but I just thought I would throw this out to see if any one else is interested or knowledgable about this.
Back in the fifties and early sixties the Pentagon, especially the Air Force, but also the Army and Navy, had their own fledgling space programs. When NASA was formed the military was told to conduct all it's space activities through NASA, and especially all manned space ventures came under the pervue of NASA. Officially the Air Force continued it's own manned space projects for a time, DynaSoar, Blue Gemini, MOL, but all these were eventualy canceled and NASA became the only operator of a manned program.
    Now lets look at the budgets. NASA's annual budget is around 15 billion. The Pentagon's annual budget is around 200 billion, IIRC. The degree of secrecy surronding the expenditure of the military's budget is astounding, and understandable. It would be possible for the military to have continued a black space program, or at least space R&D, with a budget equal to or greater than NASA's, and hide it very easily within the normal expenditures.
    So is it possible the Air Force, or other branches, have a secret space program? What evidence is there one way or the other?
    There are strange things being seen around Air Force bases, maybe extremly advanced air craft being tested? If the X-15 could reach sub orbital space in 1962, who knows what might be possible today? What are the Big Black Deltas?
    I am not talking about UFOs at Area 51, I'm talking about real black projects that might have capabilities that could qualify the vehicles as space craft. It sure looks to me like this is within the realm of the possible, at least as far as budgetary resources are concerned.
    Any opinions?
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Offline LunarOrbit

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« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2004, 03:18:43 PM »
I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out the military has developed vehicles capable of hypersonic speeds using scramjets etc. Those are on the verge of being developed by public companies and NASA so it's not that hard to believe that the military developed them first, in secret, years ago.

I suspect that a lot of UFO sightings are top secret military planes, the famous "black triangle" UFO's look a lot like the F-117 stealth fighter.
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Offline Simkid

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« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2004, 07:13:47 PM »
How long was the F-117 in service befor it was unveiled, wasn't it almost a decade (I may be worng).  I see it as entirely plausible that they could have developed somthing, maybe even along the line of the X-20 bomber version (it had some real value in theory at least), and they would be in no hurry to annouce any of this in case they violated any treaties.  Then again, if they had somthing this secret, they couldn't use it in Iraq, or similer conflicts, meaning, the decreasing possibility of WWIII is the only use such a system would have.  Maybe they have a new (silent) stealth bomber, that seems the most likly to me, but given how cabable existing sytems are, I think they would have trouble justifing the expense (whether they have the money or not).

Offline madmax

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Here's one
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2004, 11:16:13 PM »
This is one possibility.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.html

I'll bet there are others. For example, Liek Myrabo's Microwave Lightcraft, research for which was originally being supported by the Air Force, seems to have disapearred from the radar, so to speak. I can not find any information on research being done on it that is more recent than 2 years ago. I find it hard to believe that such an amazing concept has just been dropped and forgotten. Has it gone black?

Much the same can be said about the Mini Magneto Sphere Plasma Propulsion (M2P2) system of Robert Winglee. It was big news for awhile, but nothing new has appeared on it in almost 2 years.

What is going on here?

??????????
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Offline LunarOrbit

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« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2004, 11:27:36 PM »
Hopefully, if these advanced spacecraft designs do exist, the technology will filter down to the regular space program.
" We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard..."
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Offline Simkid

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« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2004, 12:19:37 PM »
If it is an airship, why would they keep it secret.

Offline Bferrero

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« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2004, 04:17:41 PM »
Security.  :shock:

As so the public doesn't get hurt if something awry happens. I'm sure in a few years they will announce a project but we lower life forms aren't privy to that info.

Just a hunch but I think this has something to do with rogue nations wanting our technology.

I could be wrong, security plain and simple. :wink:

Offline madmax

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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2004, 02:54:29 PM »
Also, if a potential enemy doesn't know we have a technology then there is no way for them to develop counter measures. Surprise is everything in warfare.
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Offline madmax

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« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2004, 11:59:19 AM »
I've just read that the Pentagon has an acknowledged budget of $20 billion for sattelites and rockets and related research. Compare to NASA's $15 billion dollar budget. Also consider the possibility of secret military budgets, which are known to exist (though just what they are for is, of course, a secret). If NASA is expected, under the Bush plan, to establish moon bases with only modest increases to it's budget, it looks to me like the military could ALREADY HAVE MANNED BASES ON THE MOON. At least they do have the budget needed if they wanted to do it.

O.K. I don't really think this is the case, but it makes one wonder.
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Offline LunarOrbit

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« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2004, 12:46:24 PM »
Wow, it does make you wonder what they could be doing with that much money, when NASA is able to build a space station and fly the shuttle with less. And you're right, that figure doesn't even consider their "black budget".

I'm betting a large percentage of that budget is solely for research though.
" We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard..."
 - John F. Kennedy

Offline madmax

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« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2004, 01:05:46 PM »
And NASA benefits a lot from "trickle down" from Pentagon funded research. If NASA goes to Lockhead and says "Can you build a rocket that does such and so?", then Lockhead looks at the research and hardware development they've already done on Defense Dept. contracts and says "Sure, no problem!". This is cheaper, for NASA, than having to foot the bill for the research from scratch. Likewise some (just a little though) of the DOD's $20 billion gets paid to NASA for use of facilities and such (not to mention the use of the Shuttle on military missions, which the DOD has to pay NASA for too).
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Offline madmax

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« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2004, 11:51:27 AM »
According to this story, http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040131004349.936j6p14.html the proposed DoD 2005 budget is 400 billion, with 9 billion for missle defense. I assume this means rockets used as weapons, rather than as satellite launchers, though in some cases the same rocket can be used. No mention of space budget. And Congress complains about increasing NASAs budget from 15 billion to 16 billion.
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Offline LunarOrbit

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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2004, 01:19:06 PM »
The problem is that the public hears the word "billion" and they think it's an insane amount of money. For a government the size of the United States a billion dollars is pocket change... the Canadian Space Agency spent almost $1 billion on the the ISS robot arm.
" We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard..."
 - John F. Kennedy

Offline spacecat27D

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« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2004, 09:43:35 AM »
I've heard some conspiracy nuts ramble on about 'secret military space programs' including everything from active MOL's to entire complexes on the far side of the moon!  Reality: the Air Force has its hands full with normal launch operations at the Cape and Vandenberg, and has regular budget battles in congress to maintain and advance what's there.  Anyone in the space biz will be quick to point out that it's one thing to launch satellites; quite another to launch people.  Anything manned would need regular re-supply & crew changeouts- even if there were a secret facility on a desolate Pacific island- the number of launches would eventually call attention to itself.  

Certainly there have been and are plenty of black aircraft projects- it's their job- I'd worry if there were not.

I sometimes wonder, though- during the peak of the Cold War so MANY heavy satellites were lofted by both sides under the heading of "spy satellite" or "military communications satellite"....... even if banned by treaty one or both sides may have put up some sort of orbital bomb package just to have 'one up' on the other.  Factor in orbital decay and end of service life- and you have a contamination mess waiting to happen.........

Offline Simkid

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« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2004, 12:00:31 PM »
I don't think (or at least I pray they didnt) they ever flew one of those orbital platforms, simply because it would have required a very heavy launch (maybe one of the N1s worked) and it would be immensly more complex than normal missles.