Author Topic: Fluorine  (Read 142794 times)

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Fluorine
« Reply #60 on: October 29, 2010, 12:39:01 PM »
If carbon buildup is a problem, it's a problem worth solving because it's looking like methane and propane are the best propellant options.  I'm still fine tuning the numbers, but I've been working on figuring out how much delta-v each propellant can deliver relative to the amount of mass placed in orbit.  I'll present the results once I have them finalized, but so far he higher density of the hydrocarbon is winning out over the higher specific impulse of hydrogen.

I'm not too worried about carbon in the turbine because we can always bypass the problem and use a hydrogen peroxide fueled system, which is a tried and true method.  However, if carbon buildup in the reactor or thrust chamber is a problem, then we have a real issue to deal with.  Since one of the papers SM referred to mention using octane as a propellant, can we assume the original NTR researchers did not find hydrocarbons an unsolvable problem?

« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 08:42:43 PM by Bob B. »

Offline DonPMitchell

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Re: Fluorine
« Reply #61 on: October 29, 2010, 08:10:40 PM »
In the closed-cycle engines of the Soviets, there were very tricky problems in the pre-burner, where oxidizer-rich or fuel-rich exhaust would flow thorough pipes and turbines and gas/liquid or gas/gas injectors.  Typically these structures were made from stainless steel coated with nichrome and plated with zirconium, to resist oxidizer rich exhaust.  The documents I've seen did not reveal the alloy used for the turbine blades, merely saying they were heat resistant.  This was probably a guarded secret, but I assume they were nickel "super alloy" like that used in jet engines.
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Offline ijuin

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Re: Fluorine
« Reply #62 on: October 29, 2010, 10:36:26 PM »
Of greater importance is whether you could do several long burns spaced out over a couple of years for an interplanetary mission--for example, escaping from Earth, insertion at Jupiter a year later, escape from Jupiter several months after that, and insertion back at Earth after another year. Would there be a need to clear out the soot during the mission?

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Fluorine
« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2010, 01:39:55 AM »
The completion of any space mission requires the execution of preplanned propulsive maneuvers, each with a known velocity change, or ?V.  The amount of ?V is irrespective of the propulsion system, however the type of propulsion system largely affects the size of vehicle needed to deliver the velocity change.  

One measure of a propulsion system’s effectiveness is specific impulse, but this doesn’t always tell the whole story.  Perhaps a better measure is the total mass that must be placed in orbit to complete the mission.   For instance, suppose a mission to the Moon requires 140,000 tons to be placed in orbit using one particular type of propulsion system.  If a different propulsion system allows the same mission to be completed by placing only 120,000 tons into orbit, then arguably the second system is the superior system.

I applied this same philosophy to the different NTR propellants discussed previously.  Which propellant allows us to deliver a particular ?V with the least amount of total mass?

To do this I had to estimate the inert mass of the vehicle, i.e. the mass less propellant.  First, what’s the mass of the propulsion system?  I figure the thrust chamber and turbo-machinery should weight about the same as a chemical engine.  After studying several engines, I determined an engine’s mass in kilograms is about 3*Q, where Q is the volumetric flow rate in liters/second.  

The mass of the reactor is much less certain.  The NERVA engines had thrust-to-weight ratios of about 3 to 4.  This is pretty bad, but other designs were studied that would have improved this to 5 or perhaps much better, though they weren’t fully developed.  I decided to make the reactor mass that needed to give my hydrogen system a T/W ratio of 5.  I came up with the formula Mass = 3*Power+1000, where mass is in kg and power in megawatts.  This is really just a wild guess, but when applied to my hydrogen NTR, the T/W ratio is 4.93 (engine + reactor).  Since the reactor power and volumetric flow rates of the other propellants is much less than hydrogen, those systems have far better T/W ratios.

I also added a mass of 1,200 kg for electric and hydraulic power systems and avionics.  The idea for this number comes from NASA’s Exploration Systems Architecture Study (2005).  The ESAS report includes a mass breakdown for the proposed CLV and CaLV (later Ares I and Ares V).  Using the CLV second stage and the CaLV EDS (Earth Departure Stage) as a guideline, I came up with the 1,200 kg figure.

For the payload I used a mass of 25,000 kg.  This number was chosen because it gives my hydrogen NTR an average acceleration approximately equal to that produced by the Saturn S-IVB stage when used with the Apollo payload.

Something else I needed to do before completing this analysis was to determine how much propellant is required to drive the turbopumps.  I calculated the pump power assuming a 75 atm pressure rise and 75% efficiency.  A turbine efficiency of 67% was assumed for a combined turbine/pump efficiency of 50%.  I figured a heat exchanger and gas generator system that delivers 1,000 K gas to the turbine with an inlet pressure of 50 atm and an exit pressure of 3 atm, for a pressure ratio of 16.67.  Based on these parameters, I calculated the mass of propellant needed to deliver the power to the turbine.  The energy needed to raise the propellant to 1,000 K is not more than 1% of the reactor power.

The pump power, turbine power, and turbine propellant flow rate are included in the table in Post #50, which has been updated.  I also recalculated the specific impulse based on the total propellant flow to the engine, including that to both the chamber and the turbine.

Finally, I assumed a propellant residual equal to 5 seconds of burn time.  All the above assumptions and calculations gives us the following masses, in kilograms.  These numbers are fixed and do not change relative to the propellant load.  LOX-hydrogen chemical propulsion is included as a comparison to NTR propulsion.

TABLE 1               H2      CH4     C3H8    C2H8N2   C2H5OH      NH3   LOX-H2
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engine             2,502      542      412      372      402      526    1,013
Reactor            7,837    4,879    3,896    2,945    4,414    5,487      N/A
Power/avionics     1,200    1,200    1,200    1,200    1,200    1,200    1,200
Payload           25,000   25,000   25,000   25,000   25,000   25,000   25,000
Residuals            296      382      399      490      528      598      571
Total             36,836   32,003   30,907   30,007   31,544   32,811   27,784

Next we need an equation to estimate the mass of the propellant tanks and related structure.  One good example of a propellant tank we can use as a guideline is the Shuttle External Tank. A tank’s surface area is proportional to its volume raised to the 2/3 power.  Applying this to the Shuttle ET we get the equation Mass=1.65*Volume^2/3, where mass is in kg and volume is in liters.  This includes all primary and secondary structures and separation systems.  The numbers given in the NASA ESAS Report are in the same ballpark, so we’ll go with it.

Given the masses shown in the above table and an equation to calculate the tank mass, I can calculate the propellant mass needed to achieve a specified ?V.  Adding it all up and we have the total mass of the entire vehicle delivered to orbit.  Below are the masses, in kilograms, for four different ?V budgets:

TABLE 2               H2      CH4     C3H8    C2H8N2   C2H5OH      NH3   LOX-H2
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
?V = 3,000 m/s
Tank               6,834    2,176    1,773    1,687    1,870    2,387    3,372
Propellant        18,629   19,875   20,099   25,377   29,585   36,930   30,652
Total *           62,298   54,054   52,780   57,071   63,000   72,128   61,808
 
?V = 6,000 m/s
Tank              13,470    4,223    3,451    3,446    3,913    5,249    7,532
Propellant        52,075   54,381   55,258   75,016   90,582  121,760  103,671
Total *          102,380   90,606   89,616  108,469  126,039  159,820  138,988
 
?V = 9,000 m/s
Tank              22,531    6,944    5,694    6,033    7,056   10,108   14,950
Propellant       112,994  115,113  117,581  174,376  220,099  326,395  290,899
Total *          172,361  154,061  154,183  210,416  258,698  369,314  333,633
 
?V = 12,000 m/s
Tank              36,050   10,852    8,926   10,169   12,357   19,391   30,339
Propellant       228,999  225,239  231,163  382,193  510,839  868,289  842,092
Total *          301,885  268,094  270,996  422,369  554,740  920,491  900,216
 
* - Includes total from TABLE 1.

Although hydrogen has the best specific impulse, methane and propane win the mass battle thanks to their far better densities.  The huge tanks required to store the low-density hydrogen is just too much of a mass penalty to overcome.  This isn’t as big a problem with chemical propulsion because hydrogen isn’t used alone; it’s used in combination with LOX, which raises the combined density to something tolerable.  But in an NTR, hydrogen is used all by itself.

The winner between methane and propane is pretty much a toss up, with propane being a little better with a small delta-v, and methane being a little better with a large delta-v.  Propane has a better boiling point, so boil-off may be less of an issue.  However, methane can be manufactured from in situ recourses.

I’d like to close by saying there’s a lot of guesswork in these numbers, so take them with caution.  Nonetheless, I think the results are interesting to ponder.

The calculation I’m most worried about is the specific heat ratio of the carbon containing propellants.  I’m confident in my method when the exhaust products are all gaseous, but with carbon we have a solid in the exhaust.  I think I’m going about it correctly, but I have nothing to check my results against to confirm.  One of the reasons methane and propane look so good is because of their low specific heat ratios.  If I’ve calculated the ratios too low, then the results could be thrown off considerably – possibly enough to swing the advantage back to hydrogen.

(Edit)  Added LOX-LH2 chemical propulsion for comparison.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 12:38:44 PM by Bob B. »

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Fluorine
« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2010, 01:48:45 AM »
Regarding carbon build up in the gas generator and turbine, something I forgot to consider is that at the lower operating temperatures there will be much less dissociation.  Much of the carbon will remain bound up in gaseous methane (this isn't true in the hotter engine chamber).  Maybe soot in the turbine won't be as bad as I feared.

Offline Satanic Mechanic

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Re: Fluorine
« Reply #65 on: November 01, 2010, 11:21:46 AM »
Bob,
Thanks for doing this research into this subject.  You have enough to make a white paper of your own on the use of Methane as a NERVA propellant. :D

Don,
The Soviet stainless steel/nichrome/zirconium would work fine.  Matter of fact, most fuel assemblies in reactors are designed that way, but I we use titanium now instead of nichrome.

If you guys have any reactor questions, I work a couple miles away from a reactor and I know someone who works there.

SM

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Fluorine
« Reply #66 on: November 01, 2010, 12:31:08 PM »
If you guys have any reactor questions, I work a couple miles away from a reactor and I know someone who works there.

My father worked at a reactor.  In fact, it was a NASA test reactor that did work specifically for Project Rover.  It operated from 1961 to 1973.  The following is a book about it:

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4533/Plum%20Brook%20Complete.pdf

My dad was in the health physics office, which was a subcontractor to NASA.  The office was responsible for safety, radiation monitoring, review and approval of all experiments, etc.  The reactor itself and all the experiments were run by NASA personnel.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 12:42:53 PM by Bob B. »

Offline Satanic Mechanic

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Re: Fluorine
« Reply #67 on: November 08, 2010, 02:51:11 PM »
Bob,
Thanks for the information about Plum Brook.  That must of been a great place to work at.  I never knew that the development of the nuclear version of the B-36 and NERVA was done there. Most of the time when you hear about research reactors, you think of INL(Idaho National Laboratories), Los Alamos or the few (once many) TRIGA reactors at universities.  That was a great read and it was sad that research ended. 
-A side note, I read about the nuclear version of the B-36 last summer.  I have been a fan of that plane since 2003, when I went to a lecture by one of the original engineers of the B-36.

SM

Offline ijuin

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Re: Fluorine
« Reply #68 on: November 08, 2010, 11:59:03 PM »
AFAIK the contaminated-exhaust issue made nuclear-thermal aircraft impractical.I know that the nuclear-powered aircraft concept required that the reactor be unshielded except for a limited amount to protect the flight crew, but did they ever solve the problem of the exhaust being too radioactive for it to fly safely over populated areas?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pluto

For a turbofan aircraft however, it might be more efficient to use the nuclear reactor to rotate the fans (essentially an aircraft version of the way that nuclear naval vessels are driven). I would expect that the large wing area would be useful as a heat radiator, though this would make your airplane a very visible target to infrared sensors such as ye olde Sidewinder heat-seeking missile.

Offline DonPMitchell

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Re: Fluorine
« Reply #69 on: November 09, 2010, 01:47:29 PM »
Why would the exhaust be radioactive?

The Soviets flew a nuclear turboject bomber for 48 hours.  But there was a problem of shielding and it was unsafe to pilot it for longer periods

http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/tupolev/119/119.htm
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Offline ijuin

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Re: Fluorine
« Reply #70 on: November 10, 2010, 11:50:46 PM »
A nuclear ramjet would have radioactive exhaust due to having the airflow passing directly through the reactor core--it is after all essentially the same as a NTR except that instead of taking its propellant from a tank, it uses the atmospheric air. This was Project Pluto.

A nuclear turbojet, on the other hand, uses a coolant loop to transfer the heat from the reactor to the turbines. This was the XB-36.

A third type is the nuclear-electric turbofan, which does not dump reactor heat into the propulsion airstream, but instead just generates electricity to spin the ducted fans. This results in a heavier system with reduced high-speed performance, but removing the turbines from the cooling system and using the wing surface instead means that airflow does not need to be maintained while the reactor is active yet the plane is on the ground and stationary (the "can't turn the engines off without shutting down the reactor" problem that the XB-36 had to overcome).

Offline DonPMitchell

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Re: Fluorine
« Reply #71 on: November 11, 2010, 04:49:45 PM »
I do not believe the exhaust would be radioactive.  Exposure to radiation does not necessarily make somehing radioactive.  The air passing through the reactor would be exposed to neutrons, but neutron absorption by oxygen and nitrogen will still result in stable non-radioactive isotopes.
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Offline ijuin

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Re: Fluorine
« Reply #72 on: November 12, 2010, 01:21:40 AM »
Here is the Astronautix article for Project Pluto (also known as the Supersonic Low-Altitude Missle, or SLAM):

Quote from: Paragraph 6:
Apart from the thermonuclear warheads, SLAM itself was also a very formidable weapon. The sonic boom of a 25+ m long vehicle flying at Mach 3+ at 300 m altitude would cause severe destruction in non-hardened structures on the ground. Additionally, the nuclear ramjet continuously left a trail of highly radioactive dust, which would seriously contaminate the area below the missile. Finally, when the SLAM eventually crashed itself at the end of the mission, it would leave a wreckage of a very hot and radioactive ("dirty") nuclear reactor.

Offline DonPMitchell

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Re: Fluorine
« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2010, 01:51:22 AM »
I found an article in Air & Space about SLAM.  Looks like leaking fission products was part of the weapon's appeal.  But a reactor doesn't do that if it's properly sealed.

I think there are other problems wth nuclear jet engines, including the political unpolularity and fear of nuclear power.
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Offline ijuin

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Re: Fluorine
« Reply #74 on: November 13, 2010, 12:14:56 AM »
Well it would only really be "good" if the leaking of fission fragments could wait until it was over enemy territory--it rather cramps the deployment options if it irradiates its launch site and its exit path from your own territory, requiring you to keep it dozens of kilometers away from any people that you might want to keep alive.

On sealants, that adds mass to the system, so you're either going to lose payload fraction or you will need a BIGGER reactor . . .

But to address your "other problems" comment, the biggest problem seems to always have been the fact that adequate reactor shielding is prohibitively massive unless you scale it up to a plane at least as large as an Airbus 380. You can cheat and only protect the crew/cargo, but that makes all other approach angles to the aircraft dangerous when the plane is on the ground (definitely a non-starter for carrying passengers who might get the dumb idea of trying to jump the fence and stand on the wrong side of the plane, even if all other problems are solved).