Author Topic: Military History  (Read 111751 times)

Offline Johno

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Re: Military History
« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2005, 11:04:42 PM »
Thanks, I think . . :)

Remember that until about 1901, Australia was a penal colony, so most of us thought of ourselves as English even up to and including both world wars.  It was only in WW2 that we first started realising that as an independent country we didn't actually HAVE to do whatever old England said.

We then started obeying the USA uncritically, leading us into Vietnam and a variety of other places.

It's only been in the last 20 years that we've started to really become our own country, but even now we'll follow Uncle Sam off on his next military adventure, whether it be foolish or wise . .

Offline skyjim

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Re: Military History
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2005, 02:39:27 AM »
Well, I certainly hope you guys don't follow us on the foolish ones.  Which we have a depressing penchant for.

I just tend to like the Australians I've met, and I know that my dad had extremely warm feelings for the families that took him into their homes when he would get leave.  He said it was the only decent food and warmth of family he experienced in a year  of combat flying.  Like most of the guys flying, he wasn't much more than a kid at 21, and he just missed home.  He came VERY close to going back permanently after the war.

Jim

Offline Johno

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Re: Military History
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2005, 08:02:07 AM »
You wouldn't believe how many Australians started life elsewhere.  That's always been our secret plan to take over the world - impress the best and brightest with our warm, friendly country when they visit, then have 'em take out citizenship.  Next thing you know they're CEO of McDonalds or something, but permanently sending money home. :)

As for the adventures, we even have a name for it these days - we call it "Paying the invasion insurance premium".

Mind you, we're getting increasingly involved in UN peacekeeping missions.  We have specialist units for this that are really good at their job, for all the good it does - after their rotation, they get replaced by a unit of Z grade French Foreign Legionaires who've been constantly deployed for 28 years and are sick of the local food.  This inevitably leads to a "shoot first and ask questions later" incident, so the good work goes a-begging . . .


Offline skyjim

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Re: Military History
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2005, 12:04:39 PM »
Hey, that was once our strategy in the States - but now we seem to have forgotten it!

Peacekeeping missions are tough, mostly thankless, and often futile.  But if we have any pretensions of being "civilized" they have to be tried.  Too bad we can't get at the root causes of some of these conflicts.  But that would cost more...

God, I've gotten cynical in my old age!

Jim

Offline Big RI Joe

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Re: Military History
« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2005, 03:20:02 PM »


God, I've gotten cynical in my old age!

Jim
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You want cynicism? Check the per barrel  of crude since the Iraqi invasion......
but I still haven't found what I'm lookin for.

Offline skyjim

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Re: Military History
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2005, 09:41:02 AM »
Too true.

Jim

Offline Fozzi Bear

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Re: Military History
« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2007, 09:15:52 AM »
Understood Johnno :D

Closest battlegroung for me in Canadian history would probably be the Plains of Abraham outside Quebec City. I've been there once.

I'll have to look up Gallipoli and refresh my memory.

An attempt to seize the straights between the mediteranean and black seas in 1915, it deployed over a hundred thousand troops mostly british and french but with contingents of australian and new zealand troops.

Very much fits the same cultural pattern for ausies and kiwis as 'the alamo' does for texans, i.e. an honourable defeat against overwhelming odds. The campaign was weird in many ways, and was an unmittigated disaster from start to finish.

The Anzac contingents landed at the wrong beach, meaning instead of landing at a gentle, sloping and *undefended* beach, they were actually landed under a cliff face, in some places 30-40' high, within a mile of a turkish cavalry training base, cliffs they were expected to scale, in broad daylight, under heavy machine gun crossfire.

Frankly one has to question the competency, not only of an admiral who cant tell the difference between a beach and a cliff, but frankly also of the first lord of the admiralty who appointed him. That lord was Winston Churchill, and this would be far from the last time in his life that he would send tens of thousands of ausies to their death on a completely tactically pointless campaign (eg in WWII he also decided to abandon the Australian division defending Singapore despite not only knowing it had no guns facing the malay peninsula but also in the full knowledge they very little fuel and even less ammunition (the Prince of Wales was on a supply mission to resupply these troops when it was sunk by Japanese naval aircraft, there wasnt a chance in hell the troops could hold singapore yet churchill not only refused to evacuate them himself he also point blank refused to allow Australia to even mount a rescue attempt on our own).

By some miracle the grunts from all armies managed to establish a beach head (the kiwis actually captured their main objective but were nearly 400 yards ahead of the main lines and thus had to fall back to avoid their salient being encircled).

The final lines stabilised about two and a half miles inland where it remained stuck in trench warfare for nearly 6 months. The command officers (except the commanding general himself, who had practically no military experience at all when appointed to the command) all realised the gamble had failed as soon they failed to secure their initial invasion targets, but the general would not listen, finally the media, in the form of Rupert Murdochs grand father, managed  to get proof of the disaster to the parliament and after some political gamesmanship the command was changed.

The new general, after exploring several options, decided that enough troops had died in a pointless cause and lobbied, succesfully, for a retreat.

The final miracle of the campaign, one widely regarded by military historians as one of *THE* truely impressive feats in military logistical history, came when 4 entire divisions of troops (the entire expeditionary force) were evacuated in a period of less than six hours, so quietly and efficiently that the turks didnt actually notice for nearly a full day.

There are many elements that draw ones attention, and this campaign went along way towards teaching the british that just because someone has a noble title doesnt necessarily mean they know anything about commanding men on a battlefield. There were also many humorous elements in the campaign, A trait that ausies\kiwis and turks share is that we tend to have somewhat overactive senses of humour, we actually enjoy being somewhat irreverant, im sure that Johnno and Sarah will back me up when i say that for many Australians the ultimate sin is to take onesself too seriously , and that did come through here.

Part of the turkish lines were commanded by a young senior lieutenant Mustafa Kemal (who would later overthrow the monarchy and take the name Kemal Attaturk). A story related by capt. Hunter, light Australian Horse Brigade goes that on one occasion Kemal arranged for a recon party to attach the turkish telegraph lines to the allied telegraph lines just so that after an extended turkish artillery bombardment he could send them the message "how did you like that you Australian b*****ds" according to Hunter what really annoyed the british officers wasnt so much the bombardment, nor Kemals message but the fact that when it was read out several of the Ausie officers, including John Monash the commander of the Australian contingent were literally on their knees bent over double laughing their heads off at the sheer audacity of Kemal, and the sheer absurdity of the situation.

a much more detailed account of the campaign can be found here

http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/gallipoli/index.htm

In case you cant tell i'm not only interested in history (including military history) im actually passionate about it.

cheers
Fozzi

Politicians are exactly like diapers; they should be changed just as frequently, and for precisely the same reasons - Mark Twain

Offline NeppiTK

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Re: Military History
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2007, 12:11:49 AM »
Hey Guys,...

as you are talking about Military History, and WWII,...

I'm very interested in history in general and especially in military hist,... And I'm German, so since i am a very open minded guy i just had to read about WWII for about 6 years now,..(personal, not for school matters) so if you need any info's about the German crimes, and about battle in west or east Europe (west from the invasion ´44, in the east from the beginning of so called "operation Barbarossa" ´41 to strike down Russia) don't hesitate to ask,..

I visited the german rocket fascility "Penemünde" about 10 years ago,... pretty impressive how they fooled allied troops, so they think nothing would be there at all, except maybe a start base for V1/V2,... About 360 Allied Bombers were send to take it out, but there was little destruction, since every important part was underground in bunkers,... except for the big powerplant,... but it didn´t got even a scratch during the bombing,... after that the germans decided to move the facsility further to the south,..! By the way, the russians found about 200 fireable V2-Rockets,... you only had to add the "payload".

cheers!
Neppi