Author Topic: Some Automotive Ideas  (Read 34608 times)

Offline spacecat27

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Some Automotive Ideas
« on: December 10, 2002, 04:00:02 AM »
Space technology has provided the auto industry with radial tires, electronic fuel injection, anti-lock brakes and air bags- to name a few items-- but it's surprising we have not seen  larger, more revolutionary contributions.  If only the R&D infrastructure of Apollo had been retained to address our future energy and transportation needs.......

At any rate, I thought it would be fun to get a thread going here to sling around some ideas for future or near future land vehicles; and I'll start by relating some things I've been dreaming of for a few decades.  Later, I'll come back with a bunch of links for reference- for now I'll just ramble........

Some years ago I collaborated (well, actually we had a few meetings where alcohol was involved) with some other ex-space engineers and we tossed around ideas for a future car.  For guidelines-
1) Electricity should be the prime mover- the vehicle should have very minimal hydrocarbon emission, if not zero.

2) It should be able to take on fuel to generate electricity from the existing supply infrastructure.

3) As such, it should have a cruising range equal to, if not better than existing compact automobiles, and should be capable of normal highway speeds.

4) It should minimally be able to carry two people and stowage for limited 'carry-on' luggage.  We had routine work commuting and errand running in mind- as opposed to moving a large family.

One of our first 'innovations' was to go to a 3-wheeled design for the inherent reduction of rolling resistance.  This brought up a re-examination of Buckminster Fuller's Dymaxion car... which led to some discussion on the merits or dangers of single rear-wheel steering.  Proper C.O.G. placement could assure adequate anti-roll stability.

To meet #3 above, we figured a small internal combustion engine could be used to spin a high-output alternator or two that could maintain the batteries on long runs.  Charging could be augmented while parked via 'plugging in'- and perhaps solar panels.

We sketched out our thinking- and the result looked very much like the Doran electric car that was later sold as a kit for awhile in the mid-80's.  We were thinking of a frame of welded tubular aluminum for strength and crash safety- with an aerodynamic fiberglass outer body.  The term 'hybrid vehicle' was not yet in popular use- but eventually we figured the on-board I.C. engine should be a small gas turbine- since they like to run at a constant speed, are fuel-efficient, and have just one moving part...... a mini APU, if you will.  We never considered regenerative braking.  In later years, it turns out NASA did some research along these lines using a gas turbine / electric drive for a full-size commuter bus.

All of this comes back to me now- because I recently became aware of a 3-wheeled (though 1-passenger) electric commuter vehicle called The Sparrow being built and sold by Corbin Motors of California.  

The weight and expense of batteries continue to be a stumbling block for all EV technology- but encouraging development is happening in the field of "ultracapacitors".

As for our ideas from the past- when we figured out just what it would cost to build, de-bug and perfect enough prototypes- and then go for DOT safety certification..... well, we just didn't have a hundred million bucks sitting around.

But anyway- it might be fun to swap ideas here for the perfect 'space age' automobile- and see what we might come up with!


Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Some Automotive Ideas
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2002, 02:00:02 PM »
I wish I knew enough about cars to be of value to this discussion because it is very interesting. Unfortunately everything under the hood of a car is a mystery to me. "<img">

I guess I spent too much time learning about the insides of a computer and not enough about cars. My brothers could both add a lot to this topic though.

It would be easy for me to say "a car should be able to do this" but I wouldn't be able to solve the problem of how to actually make it do it.

If I come up with any ideas I'll let you know... in the meantime I look forward to what you have to say.


Kel



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Offline spacecat27

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Re: Some Automotive Ideas
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2003, 05:00:00 PM »
Hi Kel-
When I first posted this I thought maybe there was more traffic through here than our 'gang of usual suspects', LOL--

but having been on several long drives recently where I tend to do alot of technical thinking.........

Some years ago I attended a number of seminars for 'Making Innovation Pay' or how to 'Bring Your Idea to Market' and such.  One prevalent theme was that the automotive industry is essentially a 'good ol' boys club' that is very closed to outside ideas and very hung up on the "NIH" (Not Invented Here) syndrome.  So the overall recommendation was to shy away from the auto market.

Related to some of the things I mentioned- the auto industry has been embedded with the concept that a car MUST throttle up to accelerate and run and drop to idle at stops since day one- thus any type of constant speed turbine for power generation is so foreign to them that it would never be considered.

Again, too bad the Apollo guys were not pointed in this direction as soon as we saw the 'writing on the wall' of the Arab oil embargo and lines at the gas pumps in 1973!

I recently bought a Toyota Tacoma pickup- whose average MPG is around 18..... the same that Volkswagon beetles were getting back in my college days!  Sure there are a few Hondas and such around that do somewhat better (and cost alot more)- but it's sad after all these years and all the electronic 'junk' that has been added to average cars that they have not gotten considerably more efficient!


Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Some Automotive Ideas
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »
The forum gets quite a few new visitors but there's just a handful (or less "<img"> ) of regulars. But I'm happy with the way it is... when forums become busy they are too hard to manage.

You're right about the "good ol' boy's club". They tend to stick with what is known which doesn't lead to much innovation. New ideas require spending money and are therefore too risky.

It also helps to have a political reason to do something. As much as I would like to believe otherwise, we didn't go to the Moon for scientific reasons, we did it to beat the Russians.

If, instead of focusing on going to the Moon, the government had said "we'll show those Ruskies we're better by being the first to develop hyrdogen powered cars" we probably would have done it back in 1969.

Gasoline powered automobiles work just fine as far as the government and the auto industry are concerned, and we'll be forced to move at their slow pace until a significant number of people demand change.



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Offline rcable1

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Re: Some Automotive Ideas
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2003, 09:00:00 AM »
Concerning the 3 wheeled auto, I feel that there is not quite enough of a safety factor when it comes to performing turns. There woud have to be a good front end support system in place to avoid a dipping effect to the front of the vehicle. But would such support be adding adding weight to the vehicle?

The driving habits of the general public is lousy at best (my opinion) and if a 3 wheeler is not stable enough in the front those that institute turns at speeds that exceed the safety of said turn, it could lead to single car accidents.

Not being an engineer I could be completely in left field about the turning issue. Maybe a rear single wheel would be safer, such as some fork lift machines I have seen.

I feel that the concept you have mentioned is absolutely excellent. As this concept would use less combustable fuels than the autos of today, what do you think the attitudes of the good ol boys at the oil companies would be?

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Offline Satanic Mechanic

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« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2003, 02:00:00 PM »
I have worked for four years in the research and development of electric/hybrid cars until my budget was cut and I had to find a new job.  I drive an electric car that I converted myself.
All I have to say is the batteries are out there for the electric cars (the 300 mile battery as we called it) but no company wants to invest in manufacturing of the battery to drop the price of so other companies can get it for cheap.

SM


Offline spacecat27D

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Some Automotive Ideas
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2003, 11:37:55 AM »
Have not meant to abandon this discussion- but it's not like we're up against a deadline!   :D
 
About 3 wheels...... the Doran folks did extensive stability studies and found if the center of gravity is properly placed (don't have the charts or figures in front of me)three wheels can be even more stable than four.  The Doran used the front wheels for steering via a conventional rack & pinion system.  

Buckminster Fuller was a bit more daring on his Dymaxion- using the rear third wheel to steer- reasoning that this is how nature does it (tail on a fish or bird- like the rudder on a boat) and thus ended up with a vehicle that could rotate on its own center.... real handy for tight parking spaces! But- this required an ingenious governor system to increasingly limit steerage of the third wheel with increased speed.  Needless to say- he didn't want it possible to do a hard turn of the rear wheel when you're zooming down the Interstate at 70!  :shock:

Offline fiona_j

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Some Automotive Ideas
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2003, 05:34:01 AM »
Hi there,

Slight input. The French government are experimenting with electric cars in the centre of paris. A bit like a park and ride policy, where you leave your own car in the outskirts and use an electric one for the centre. Mainly being used to try and cut down on air pollution. You can recharge them at designated recharging centres in carparks etc.

fi x

Offline spacecat27D

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Some Automotive Ideas
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2003, 01:27:00 PM »
Merci for joining us, Fiona!
I've seen great plans on paper for similar systems in the US- usually associated with high-speed rail systems- where at any station you can turn in a 'used' electric vehicle and board the train.... or if arriving you can pick up a freshly charged EV to take to your destination.  So far as I know- it's never actually been tried here... so it will be interesting to see how things work out in Paris!

Offline Satanic Mechanic

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Some Automotive Ideas
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2003, 04:08:11 PM »
Actually that has been done in the U.S. in NY and CA.  Both programs used EV's and FCV's (Fuel Cell Vehicles).  Both programs were canceled because the automakers pulled the vehicles off the market.  GM pulled their EV-1's, canceled the customer leases and crushed all the models.  Honda pulled there EV off the market one month after introducing it.  Toyota also pulled their RAV-4 EV after one year of production here in the U.S.
I have heard many "stories" about why they pulled them off the market.  I even know some of the engineers who designed and built the EV-1, the prototype of the EV-1 called the "Impact" and that stupid $3000 inductive charger for the EV-1 that Hughes built.  
Anyway, if you guys really want an EV, you will have to build it yourself like I did.

Just my $0.02 from experience,

SM

Offline spacecat27D

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Some Automotive Ideas
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2003, 11:36:45 AM »
I agree, SM- and while I'm generally the last guy to buy into 'conspiracy theories', there would seem to be a systematic effort to crush EV development.  
A month or two ago, Leslie Stahl did a "60-Minutes" segment on the auto industry- paticularly looking at the rise is gas-guzzling SUV's.  Of course, the manufacturer's gospel was always 'we're giving the public what they want' (pretty much like radio stations only play artists & music that the public 'wants.')

Hard to tell by websites that are not regularly updated..... but last I heard demand for the Corbin Sparrow far exceeded production capabilities-- and I just suspect Corbin will not be able to find enough funding to expand.....

New subject:  I'm not entirely convinced that hydrogen is the ultimate answer-- it's risky enough to handle it in a controlled industrial environment- so I'd question its practicality if made available to a generally careless public.  Since platinum seems to be the catalyst of choice for efficient fuel cells- even mass production will not bring those costs down much.  Any thoughts from the hydrogen crowd?

Offline spacecat27D

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Some Automotive Ideas
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2003, 11:44:58 AM »
P.S.
Yeah, I could never fathom the reasoning on that inductive charger rig!  You just introduce transformer losses into the loop-- and as for 'safety'- the R/V crowd and the upscale boating crowd routinely plug in high-current / high-voltage pin and sleeve connnectors without mishap!
That thing was somebody's 'pork barrel'!

Offline Satanic Mechanic

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Some Automotive Ideas
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2003, 08:05:24 PM »
Hydrogen...When my budget was cut, the fuel cell was becoming popular, almost a fad to the media.  I took a course from a professor who would devote a section to hydrogen production, containment, application and transmission.
That's right, transmission, pushing hydrogen through a pipeline is cheaper than sending electrons on transmission lines.  Easier to upkeep too and cheaper than spending one million dollars a mile on transmission lines.

SM

Offline Satanic Mechanic

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Some Automotive Ideas
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2003, 08:14:36 PM »
Spacecat,
GM's official statement to pulling the EV-1 was "that the inductive charging system was a potential fire hazard."
You are right about the RV people's plug or as we called it Level 1 charging.  Level 2 charging used an AVCON connector which could send more amps.  Level 3 charging was GM's baby.  
But the guy I know, Al Cocconi (he developed the ac motor/controller for the ev-1) developed a great way of charging, he used the ac motor as the transformer and rectified it through the inverter.  In other words he does not need a fancy external charger or haul around a big old iron transformer for an onbaord charger.  He developed that nearly ten years now and owns the patent to it.

SM