Author Topic: First Words Spoken On Mars Surface  (Read 65045 times)

Offline snake river rufus

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Re: First Words Spoken On Mars Surface
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2007, 06:04:02 PM »
Mr.Armstrong had more than a few moments to prepare but some of these answers are darn good.
Great oogalee boogalees!

Offline apollo@pluto

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Re: First Words Spoken On Mars Surface
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2009, 09:18:33 AM »
a leap for another mankind.
JFK MARILYN MONROE THE MERCURY SEVEN . : )

Offline Homo bibiens

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Re: First Words Spoken On Mars Surface
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2009, 11:12:27 PM »
??

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: First Words Spoken On Mars Surface
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2009, 11:25:50 PM »
"I'd like to thank Boeing, Burger King, Home Depot, Microsoft, and AT&T for sponsoring this historic mission to Mars."
" We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard..."
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Offline Homo bibiens

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Re: First Words Spoken On Mars Surface
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2009, 11:38:35 PM »
"I'd like to thank Boeing, Burger King, Home Depot, Microsoft, and AT&T for sponsoring this historic mission to Mars."

If it were sponsored by Microsoft, they'd probably have to use Microsoft software on everything  :shock:

Offline DonPMitchell

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Re: First Words Spoken On Mars Surface
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2009, 01:39:00 AM »
Believe me, all software sucks.  The difference is largely about propaganda.

I know a couple high level engineers at ______.com, which runs an enormous e-commerce operation.  They decided early on to use Linux and other free software.  Of course, they have an army of happy open-source hackers who wear penguin t-shirts.  But upper management is not so happy today, because it is costing them a fortune.

They have to keep people on call 24/7 to fix bugs.  Even the most minor upgrade of server hardware takes them an estimated $40,000 to $80,000 to prepare a stable Linux kernel -- that is a kernel that will not simply crash under the load of their databases and web services.  They gather a cocktail of patches, there are thousands to chose from, then the kernel hackers they had to hire write some new patches.  And then its time to fix the next bug in the Ruby runtime.

In a recent demonstration of Linux running multiple instantiations of the linpack benchmark, they discovered the operating system's scheduler lost hardware interrupts when the system got too busy.  It lost disk I/O interrupts in fact, and actually corrupted the file system!  A numerical analysis benchmark corrupted the Linux filesystem!

This of coures being the file system that tries to do journaling like NTFS, but writes data in the wrong order so it is actually not safe.  Even Linus Torvalds has complained about this.

My point...all software sucks.
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Offline DonPMitchell

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Re: First Words Spoken On Mars Surface
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2009, 12:44:18 PM »
Oh...someone pressed one of my buttons last night...sorry. 
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Offline Homo bibiens

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Re: First Words Spoken On Mars Surface
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2009, 08:25:08 PM »
Oh...someone pressed one of my buttons last night...sorry. 

Not to worry, I liked reading that.

Believe me, all software sucks.  The difference is largely about propaganda.

Fair enough, but some suck more than others . . .

This of coures being the file system that tries to do journaling like NTFS, but writes data in the wrong order so it is actually not safe.  Even Linus Torvalds has complained about this.

 :shock:

Which one is that?  ext3, reiserfs, or something else?  Last I heard, it sounded like reiser might not be coming out with an update for a while . . .

Offline DonPMitchell

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Re: First Words Spoken On Mars Surface
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2009, 12:36:24 PM »
ext was what Torvalds has complained about.

Most people really don't have any idea what goes on in an operating system or how to judge them.  In terms of sophistication, UNIX is well behind the NT kernel, in terms of things like programming threads with a variety of styles of concurrency control, event-based programming, etc.  Open source scripting languages are very amateurishly designed (Ruby, Python), their poor grammer and design make them very dangerous for larger programs, which people always do even though they claim they are just scripting.

The open source community reminds me a lot of what I see when I  look at the old Soviet economy.  A lot of ideology and posturing about collectivization being superior to capitalism and private property rights -- but then they have to copy everything from there because their own system fails to generate innovation and quality.

As a computer scientist and software professional, I'm also distrubed by the propagandistic nature of the open source movement.  There just is no truthful information about the security or quality of software -- both in terms of praise of OSS and denoucning commercial software form Apple or Microsoft.  Try to find a TPC-C benchmark for MySQL for example.  They denounce any attempt to even perform that test (and for good reasons, MySQL with InnoDB is about 1/3 the speed of Oracle or MS SQL Server).
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
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Offline Homo bibiens

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Re: First Words Spoken On Mars Surface
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2009, 03:58:31 PM »
Most people really don't have any idea what goes on in an operating system or how to judge them.

Some of the criteria I use:

a) One OS I use crashes all the time.  The other doesn't.

b) Under one OS, if I run a numerically intensive job, it takes over my entire computer, no matter how I set its priority.  If I try to open a file in another application, it freezes up, and then suddenly opens five days from now, the instant the numerically intensive job terminates.  Under the other OS, that doesn't happen.

But perhaps I don't know how to judge these things.

Offline Satanic Mechanic

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Re: First Words Spoken On Mars Surface
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2009, 04:09:30 PM »
Open source scripting languages are very amateurishly designed (Ruby, Python), their poor grammer and design make them very dangerous for larger programs, which people always do even though they claim they are just scripting.
Never used Ruby but I agree on your assessment  of Python.  I find Python sloppy to work with compared to Perl.... but that is my opinion.

SM

Offline Homo bibiens

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Re: First Words Spoken On Mars Surface
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2009, 04:20:34 PM »
The open source community reminds me a lot of what I see when I  look at the old Soviet economy.  A lot of ideology and posturing about collectivization being superior to capitalism and private property rights -- but then they have to copy everything from there because their own system fails to generate innovation and quality.

Ah, but see, the Soviet system did generate innovation and quality, it was just that Soviet consumers had no idea how to judge the products.  If they listened to what the producers told them, instead of using their own mistaken judgment, they would have realized that the products were in fact superior.

Offline ijuin

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Re: First Words Spoken On Mars Surface
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2009, 12:57:14 AM »
Most people really don't have any idea what goes on in an operating system or how to judge them.  In terms of sophistication, UNIX is well behind the NT kernel, in terms of things like programming threads with a variety of styles of concurrency control, event-based programming, etc. 

It is my understanding that the philosophy behind Unix is that the kernel itself should be kept as minimalistic as possible, and all other functions are to be handled by modules external to the kernel, which allows a mix-and-match approach as opposed to having to rebuild the entire kernel any time that you want to tweak something. Thus, many functions handled by the NT32/64 kernel are "outsourced" under Unix-like operating systems.

Offline DonPMitchell

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Re: First Words Spoken On Mars Surface
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2009, 04:00:04 AM »
I first encountered UNIX in 1978 at Caltech, we used it in Ed Stone's lab.  Then I went to work as a research scientist at Bell Labs where UNIX was invented.  I know Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie and Rob Pike and most of the people who invented UNIX, I wrote device drivers, tinkered with the kernel, pretty much knew V6 like the back of my hand.  I spent a few years at Princeton University's comp sci department, and then became a researcher at Microsoft Research until 1999.  Although I personally am a researcher, I've come to believe that the engineering culture (systems engineering I mean) is really where important invention happens, not in the culture of academia and not in the culture of amateur hackers.

The philosophy of UNIX, back then, was to keep things simple.  But simplicity it hard, and most hackers don't actually think like that at all.  UNIX was no modular, it was monolithic, the kernel did everything and even installing a device driver meant modifying tables and recompiling the kernel.  That was true until probalby the early 1990s or last 1980s, when the UNIX community started to learn about DLLs and how to split things up into updateable moduals with well defined interfaces.  They learned that from DOS and the Mac.

NT was written in 1989 and represents a well engineered OS done by an engineering culture (Dave Cutler in particular) who understood requirements.  NT made up of a number of modules, Kernel32, User32 and gdi being the major ones.  It's API interface was cleaner and more powerful than UNIX, and it had a DDI for linking to hardware devices , which UNIX didn't have at that time.

As for crashing, that is bull****.  My latest machine has been running XP and 7 for a couple years now, and it has never crashed.  PCs that crash all the time have defective hardware or have been trashed by their users, or people are just saying this because they remember Windows 95 crashing.

UNIX today, Linux particularly, is a disappointment.  It is by no means simple anymore.  Some talented people work on Linux, but many sloppy people just add things they think are cool with no requirements.  It's bloated, poorly documented, and there is no architectural vision.

Incidently, saying that Soviet products were superior is hilarious.  They couldn't even make solid state electronics that worked.  In 1973, they launched four probes to Mars (Mars-4 - Mars-7) and they all failed because of defective electronics.  Even in the 1980s, spacecrafts contained a mix of solid state, vacuum tube and electromechanical logic and control systems.  YOu had some clever people, but you had no opportunity to make anything happen unless you were a politician and could convince the State burocracy to support your idea.  I'm fascinated by the Soviet space program, but I have no illusions that communism worked.

I believe capitalism provides two important forces.  First, it rewards talent and doesn't reward mediocrity (ideally at least).  And second, the market judges products and differentiates what people want and what works well from stuff that they don't want or that doesn't work.  Communism and movements like open source, replace all this with a system where propaganda mostly determines the success of a product, zealous and often bogus claims about the quality of something that was created by a politically correct means and zealous denounciation of products produced by politically incorrect means.  All the while, the denounced product is reverse engineered (open office, gimp, the LInux shells...all based on ideas gleened from Apple and Microsoft and Adobe products).
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Offline ijuin

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Re: First Words Spoken On Mars Surface
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2009, 01:04:43 AM »
As for crashing, that is bull****.  My latest machine has been running XP and 7 for a couple years now, and it has never crashed.  PCs that crash all the time have defective hardware or have been trashed by their users, or people are just saying this because they remember Windows 95 crashing.

I would like to state that in all the time since XP has come out, it has only given me a BSOD twice, and one of them was for a failed hard drive. This compares against ME and earlier, which would freeze or BSOD on me at least once per week.