Author Topic: Rant on biology origins text . . .  (Read 30388 times)

Offline Johno

  • The Right Stuff
  • Apollo CDR
  • ****
  • Posts: 534
  • Gender: Male
  • We came in peace for ALL mankind.
Rant on biology origins text . . .
« on: September 25, 2006, 07:59:18 PM »
I just felt the need to do a general rant.  I suggest that you cover your ears . . :)

I was teaching a class evolution.  I am a Christian, and although I am not a creationist as such, I am by no means convinced by the evolution theory either (I know your feelings, DonPMitchell, and I'm not about to hassle you!  :lol: ).  Nonetheless, I am happy to teach it to the best of my ability because *most* of it is based on reasonably sound reasoning. 

By the way, the previous paragraph is only here to state my own biases, but I don't think it has much bearing on what I'm about to complain about.

But I am getting sick to death of our textbook!  At one point, the textbook uses the presence of large flightless birds as evidence for continental drift.  Then it turns around and uses continental drift as an explanation for the presence of flightless birds - And it does this on the same page!

Now, I agree that there *are* perfectly good reasons for believing in both concepts, and I'm not trying to poke holes in the ideas .  I'm just saying that the textbook is teaching exactly the kind of circular reasoning we're trying so hard to eliminate [it's becoming clearer that we're spitting into the wind ont his one. :-(].  Grrrrrrrrrrrrr . . . if they're going to put this kind of sloppy no-think into textbooks, HOW CAN WE TEACH KIDS THAT IT'S STUPID?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Jacaranda books - LIFT YOUR GAME!!!!!!

Offline ijuin

  • Apollo CDR
  • *****
  • Posts: 547
Re: Rant on biology origins text . . .
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2006, 12:36:55 AM »
Such explanations are no longer necessary for persuading people of continental drift as we can now use laser surveying and GPS to measure the centimeters-per-year rate of motion. I put the fault squarely on the people who produced the textbook you are using.

While we are on the Evolution vs. Creation topic, and hopefully without getting into a shouting match on either side, I would like to know how Creationism explains the existance of "fossil" genes in the human genome. All humans yet sequenced have been found to share several particular "broken" genes--genes that are identical to genes in other species that provide useful functions yet are disabled by a handful of errors in the genetic code. For example, all humans (and also all ancient humanoids from which complete genomes have been recovered)have a broken version of the gene for the enzyme that manufactures Vitamin C. The result is that homonids must eat Vitamin C or get scurvy from a lack of it, whereas all other modern mammals can make their own Vitamin C.

So, the question is, if humans came into being in more or less their modern form with no ancestors (as most Evolution-rejecting versions of Creationism claim), then why does the human genome contain these "broken" genes? Why wouldn't God simply leave the gene for the Vitamin C enzyme out of our genome, if He did not mean for us to have the enzyme? Is it supposed to be part of God's punishment upon Adam or something? If so, then why didn't He simply remove the gene?

Offline Johno

  • The Right Stuff
  • Apollo CDR
  • ****
  • Posts: 534
  • Gender: Male
  • We came in peace for ALL mankind.
Re: Rant on biology origins text . . .
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2006, 05:31:53 AM »
Okay, not exactly a card-carrying creationist here - I tend towards a sort of hybrid approach (Evolution may be God's mechanism, or alternatively the world may have been created mid-evolutionary-process, kind of like creating an adult human rather than creating a baby and allowing it to grow up, but I digress).  Anyway, that is no particular problem.

Any Christian believes in the curse of Eden - basically, we were given the choice of a perfect world or an imperfect world.  The Bible clearly states that God intended a world without disease or death.  Christians who believe in Creation say that disease, death etc entered the world at this point.  "Broken" genes are a natural consequence of this.  Incidentally, I know of NO creationist, no matter how extreme, who has any problem with the idea that all life is evolving, specifically in a downward direction.  Loss of genetic information is pretty easy to observe, such as in my own case (i.e. blue eyes are the result of a recessive gene, which means that until fresh genes enter my family, we've "lost" the brown-eye gene).  Hard core creationists would argue that all genepools were created perfect and have devolved since then.  Incidentally, although it gets a lot of press, among the creationists I know (including my own head teacher, a biologist himself, which is why I know this stuff), the "young Earth" model, based on Ussher's Chronology, is a minority view.  Most of them believe in an older earth, usually about the same age as evolutionists.

These days the majority of Christians favour the Theistic Evolution approach which I alluded to earlier - that God used evolution as his tool in creation.  I'm unsure about this one too, but it has some merit.  These folks would argue that God's original intention was for humankind to have some kind of supernatural abilities - C.S. Lewis liked this idea.  Jesus could be seen as a picture of how uncorrupted humans were meant to be - i.e. death and disease are still part of the world, but humans were intended to be above the workings of bacteria, virii, injury and sin.  The choice to sin was also a choice to relinquish this power and to become a normal part of creation, basically a super-smart monkey with an inactive spirit rather than the half-angel/half animal we were supposed to be.

Sorry if I wax a little theological; it's been a long time since I seriously debated this subject.  I stopped caring once I started my training as a historian - I soon realised that it's impossible to know what happened last week with any level of certainty, so I ended up deciding that being certain one way or another of the origins of the universe was an exercise in futility.  Yes, we can make deductions and guesswork, but one of the things you learn in history is that your assumptions (even when you don't know they are there) can turn the most well-founded theory into incoherent mush.  My current viewpoint on origins is as follows:

1) There are many highly intelligent and well-credentialled evolutionists, many of which share my beliefs in God and Christ.

2) There are some (admittedly not as many, it's a minority view) equally intelligent and equally well-credentialled creationists (of which I've met a few).

3) There are loopy creationists who don't care about the evidence they see, and will ignore it if it goes against their views (esp. of the Bible).

4) There are loopy evolutionists too, as well as a very large number of scientists who aren't loopy but apathetic - they never really consider anything other than what they have been taught by others.  It is this that makes me realise that majority/minority views are a bit of a non-issue.

5) Neither can have any real certainty what happened, no matter what they think, because the evidence is by nature circumstantial.

6) Both believe they can be certain.  They're both wrong.

7) Ultimately, it makes no real difference how God created the universe; that's his job, not mine!


Offline ijuin

  • Apollo CDR
  • *****
  • Posts: 547
Re: Rant on biology origins text . . .
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2006, 11:25:44 AM »
All right, I can personally accept the Theistic Evolution approach whereby God is directing mutation and selection instead of just random chance.

I do think that the young-Earth types insist on ignoring evidence contrary to their views, however, and tend to either "add epicycles" (i.e. create fancy explainations in order to force something into their existing model, such as claiming that radioactive materials decayed faster in the ancient past thus making the Earth look older than it is, without providing a proposed mechanism for this to happen), or else use the "God is beyond our understanding" cop-out to avoid explaining anything.

Offline cartmancakes

  • Apollo LMP
  • ****
  • Posts: 245
  • Gender: Male
    • Space Bull
Re: Rant on biology origins text . . .
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2006, 11:47:50 AM »
7) Ultimately, it makes no real difference how God created the universe; that's his job, not mine!

Well put!
Check out my webpage at www.spacebull.com!

Offline DonPMitchell

  • The Right Stuff
  • Moonwalker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1200
  • Gender: Male
    • Mental Landscape
Re: Rant on biology origins text . . .
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2006, 10:12:21 PM »
I worry about the poor state of textbooks and education of the young in general.  While it is popular to point at "creationists" for messing with the teaching biology, I think the Left is more to blame for the poor state of education and lack of interest in science.  I'm reminded of that recording some high school student made, of his highschool history teacher telling the class that George Bush was just like Hitler.
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
  - Agent Smith

Offline ijuin

  • Apollo CDR
  • *****
  • Posts: 547
Re: Rant on biology origins text . . .
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2006, 11:21:19 PM »
One of the problems is that we pay public school teachers crappy salaries, so only people willing to put up with crappy salaries want to teach. Teaching public school pays less per year than any other occupation that requires more than just a straight bachelor's degree to enter.

Offline Johno

  • The Right Stuff
  • Apollo CDR
  • ****
  • Posts: 534
  • Gender: Male
  • We came in peace for ALL mankind.
Re: Rant on biology origins text . . .
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2006, 01:58:15 AM »
Preach it brother! :)

Incidentally, in my polemic above, I thought I'd add 4a) I have actually met more loopy evolutionists than loopy creationists.  This is not because evolutionists are any crazier than creationists; they're not.  There's just the same proportion of nutbags in their population as their is in the creationists (although they're nutty about different things), and there are more evolutionists overall.  Logically, there must therefore be more crazys among 'em.

Why most of the crazies of both parties seemed to hang out at MY university, I'll never know.  :lol:

Offline SCEtoAUX

  • Mercury (orbital)
  • **
  • Posts: 90
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rant on biology origins text . . .
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2006, 07:34:22 AM »
Quote
I'm reminded of that recording some high school student made, of his highschool history teacher telling the class that George Bush was just like Hitler.

If I was that teacher, the kid would have received an instant failing grade for that one.

After all, unlike Bush, Hitler was actually ELECTED. :)

As far as other comparisons between Bush's america and fascist regimes in recent history, read these:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4113.htm
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm




Offline Bob B.

  • Global Moderator
  • Moonwalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1438
  • Gender: Male
    • Rocket & Space Technology
Re: Rant on biology origins text . . .
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2006, 07:56:34 AM »
After all, unlike Bush, Hitler was actually ELECTED.
That’s not true.  Adolph Hitler lost the presidential election to Paul von Hindenburg.  Hindenburg then appointed Hitler as Chancellor of Germany, a position from which he eventually seized dictatorial power.

Offline DonPMitchell

  • The Right Stuff
  • Moonwalker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1200
  • Gender: Male
    • Mental Landscape
Re: Rant on biology origins text . . .
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2006, 12:55:39 PM »
If my child was flunked by a teacher who was telling the class that Bush is Hitler, it would be time for a lawsuit and time to fire that teacher.  I can't help it if adults entertain immature and radical political viewpoints, but school is no place to foist those opinions on children.

I don't like Bush either, but these rants about fascism in America and theories that Bush blew up the World Trade Center are offensive in the extreme.  Many of these weird video rants about how the government is fascist are actually coming from a very sinster anti-semetic organization -- the guys who talk about the Federal Reserve being owned by Jewish bankers and income tax is illegal, etc.  Keep in mind that Timothy McVeigh came out of that movement.

Never send a human to do a machine's job.
  - Agent Smith