Author Topic: Moon hoax drivel on Loose Change forum  (Read 60277 times)

Offline Obviousman

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Moon hoax drivel on Loose Change forum
« on: August 19, 2006, 05:39:55 PM »
Some people are rocket scientists, eh?

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 *sigh* You people are still debating this?

Here's my comments on that liftoff video.

1. The first thing you notice between the two mountains is the horizon. The horizon appears to be about 500 yards away meaning the moon is about a mile wide. "But the moon's nooooot a mile wide." Okay, did they land on lunar Mount Everest then? That horizon drops right off.

2. The next thing you should notice, is that the clarity and color of this video are superb, even striking. Somehow they had the technology to pump live video feeds back from the moon in 1969, yet none of our deep space missions (Voyager, Cassini, etc) have attempted to send back video. "But deep space is booooring!" I'm sure a video feed would be quite interesting for *COUGH* missions that LANDED, such as Huygens, Deep Impact, NEAR, and the mars rovers.

3. There is a 1.3 second time delay from the earth to the moon. Yet the astronaut says "Houston, we're on our way" almost exactly 1.3 seconds after liftoff. So he said this immediately when the engine fired? How strange. I say this because the 3-2-1 audio appears to be synced with the Houston side of the feed. It's synced to one side or the other, you can't have it both ways. But ~50 feet in the air is exactly when the viewer would expect to hear "we're on our way."

4. I've already posted about the improbability of controlling that remote camera with a 2.6 second delay from Houston, as well as the comparative simplicity of wiring it to the lander with a timer and a switch. Of course AE4 and Grand Lunar think that a wire and a clock are horribly complex to design and build. Meanwhile, the camera has, apparently, a high-gain antenna pointed at earth, a computer to take commands and a responsive servo motor. Hell, if we left a webcam on the moon, let's look at it right now! Oops. Not there.

"But the camera was powered by baaaaatteries!" I guess the camera only had battery power for 36 seconds of video? Because that's when the video cuts off.

5. I've already posted about the obvious PR risk of having only one shot at success for retrieving men from the moon. The NASA fanboys think that stranding astronauts on the moon is no big deal and wouldn't jeapordize the overall space program.

6. Houston says "30 seconds" at 21 seconds into the flight. Oops. He must have been reading the wrong clock. He says it at *exactly* 30 seconds into the video.

7. I saved the best for last. At 25 seconds into the flight, the astronauts report "1500 feet." That works out to 41 miles per hour. Remember, 1500 feet is a quarter mile and a human sprinter can run that in under a minute (20 mph). Meanwhile, the escape velocity for the moon is roughly 5000 mph as per Wiki. You know the Earth's escape velocity is like Mach 12 and the moon is 1/6 mass. Definitely a lot higher than 40mph.

"But they were accelllllerating...!" I guess the tiny moon lander carries 1/6th the chemical fuel of a Saturn V rocket? Damn, that's a compact package.
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http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4560&st=2010

I just have to laugh.
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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Moon hoax drivel on Loose Change forum
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2006, 05:59:53 PM »
I wonder sometimes whether people like that really believe what they're saying, or if they are just trying to drive us up a wall. I mean, why is it so hard for them to believe that NASA operated the camera on the lunar rover remotely?
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Offline ijuin

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Re: Moon hoax drivel on Loose Change forum
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2006, 09:13:49 PM »
Here are my point-by-point comments on this:

1. The first thing you notice between the two mountains is the horizon. The horizon appears to be about 500 yards away meaning the moon is about a mile wide. "But the moon's nooooot a mile wide." Okay, did they land on lunar Mount Everest then? That horizon drops right off.

Whoever said "a mile" is exaggerating greatly. Given the relative sizes of the Earth and Moon, the horizon should be anywhere from 10% to 30% as far away as on Earth depending on the local topography.

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2. The next thing you should notice, is that the clarity and color of this video are superb, even striking. Somehow they had the technology to pump live video feeds back from the moon in 1969, yet none of our deep space missions (Voyager, Cassini, etc) have attempted to send back video. "But deep space is booooring!" I'm sure a video feed would be quite interesting for *COUGH* missions that LANDED, such as Huygens, Deep Impact, NEAR, and the mars rovers.

Has this person ever heard of the relationship between signal strength and data bit rate? The farther away the spacecraft, and hence the weaker the signal, the fewer bits per second can be sent because each bit must be "heard" for a longer time by the reciever in order to detect it without errors. It's the same reason that it takes longer for a human to identify a faint sound than a louder one.

Voyager at Neptune would have been about ten THOUSAND times as far from Earth as Apollo on the Moon. That means that its signal would have been a hundred MILLION times weaker for every watt of transmtting power--for a signal that was being transmitted at less than fifty watts in the first place.

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3. There is a 1.3 second time delay from the earth to the moon. Yet the astronaut says "Houston, we're on our way" almost exactly 1.3 seconds after liftoff. So he said this immediately when the engine fired? How strange. I say this because the 3-2-1 audio appears to be synced with the Houston side of the feed. It's synced to one side or the other, you can't have it both ways. But ~50 feet in the air is exactly when the viewer would expect to hear "we're on our way."

So it is illogical for the astronaut to say "We're on our way" right BEFORE he presses the engine start button?

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4. I've already posted about the improbability of controlling that remote camera with a 2.6 second delay from Houston, as well as the comparative simplicity of wiring it to the lander with a timer and a switch. Of course AE4 and Grand Lunar think that a wire and a clock are horribly complex to design and build. Meanwhile, the camera has, apparently, a high-gain antenna pointed at earth, a computer to take commands and a responsive servo motor. Hell, if we left a webcam on the moon, let's look at it right now! Oops. Not there.

"But the camera was powered by baaaaatteries!" I guess the camera only had battery power for 36 seconds of video? Because that's when the video cuts off.

Webcam? I don't think it would be compatible with Windows, Mac, or Linux-based systems of today. :P

And who says that there is no more video after 36 seconds? NASA only puts out the video for the first 36 seconds because after that the audience can not see the LM in the picture (the camera can not point directly upward and the LM would have moved into the camera's blind spot, and been too high to see as more than a dot by the time it came out of the blind spot). The rest of the video is presumably boring pictures of sky and local terrain as seen from the rover. You could probably get access to some of it if you pestered the right people at NASA enough.

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5. I've already posted about the obvious PR risk of having only one shot at success for retrieving men from the moon. The NASA fanboys think that stranding astronauts on the moon is no big deal and wouldn't jeapordize the overall space program.

The PR cost of stranding astronauts on the moon was expected to be less than the PR cost of not going to the Moon at all, given that it was assumed at the time that the Soviets would get there first if the USA took too long in doing so. Remember, the Nixon administration decreed that the cost and risk was too great to continue the program past Apollo 17.

Also, "only one shot" at success for retrieving them? There were no provisions at all for rescuing stranded astronauts from orbit during the Mercury and Gemini programs if their retro motors failed to slow them down enough to enter the atmosphere, and yet we did those anyway, so I don't think that having no back-up is a total show-stopper. Besides, what would have happened if NASA had built a rescue vehicle and kept it standing by during every mission, and it was never called into use? People would have been screaming that NASA was wasting hundreds of millions of dollars on the "clearly unnecessary" rescue vehicle.

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6. Houston says "30 seconds" at 21 seconds into the flight. Oops. He must have been reading the wrong clock. He says it at *exactly* 30 seconds into the video.

21 seconds after lifting off from the Moon? Unless it was a mistake and he meant "twenty seconds" (or he said "twenty seconds" and you misheard), then without more details I can not explain this.

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7. I saved the best for last. At 25 seconds into the flight, the astronauts report "1500 feet." That works out to 41 miles per hour. Remember, 1500 feet is a quarter mile and a human sprinter can run that in under a minute (20 mph). Meanwhile, the escape velocity for the moon is roughly 5000 mph as per Wiki. You know the Earth's escape velocity is like Mach 12 and the moon is 1/6 mass. Definitely a lot higher than 40mph.

Let's work out the Newtonian equation for this, assuming constant acceleration (which will do well enough for a rough estimate since the ascent stage burns only about five percent of its fuel during the first 25 seconds).

1500 feet is about 455 meters.

d = 1/2 * a * t^2 (distance is one half of acceleration times the square of time--look familiar?)

455 = 1/2 * a * (25)^2

455 = 1/2 * a * 625

1.45 = a

Thus, the LM would have been accelerating upwards at approximately a meter and a half per second per second. The LM ascent stage massed about 4550 kg at launch (minus a few dozen kg for trash left behind on the surface, but plus a few dozen kg for lunar samples brought back), and had an engine thrust of 15,570 newtons. Dividing engine thrust by vehicle mass gives us an acceleration of about 3.1 m/s^2, which is approximately equal to the 1.45 m/s^2 observed above plus about 1.6 m/s^2 being lost to lunar gravity. This would imply that the stated altitude of the LM after 25 seconds was consistent with its declared techical specifications (mass, engine power) in a lunar environment.

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"But they were accelllllerating...!" I guess the tiny moon lander carries 1/6th the chemical fuel of a Saturn V rocket? Damn, that's a compact package.

Here is a common misconception about rockets. The amount of fuel used does NOT scale linearally with the amount of impulse (mass times acceleration) produced. Rather, it scales exponentially. The rocket equation, derived by Konstantin Tsiolkovsky, is:

delta-v = v(e) * ln (M1/M2)

in which v(e) is the exhaust speed of your engine, M1 is the initial fueled mass of your rocket, M2 is the mass of your rocket after the engines are shut off, and ln is the nautral log function (exponent to the base of "e", which is about 2.71--if ln x = y, then e^y = x).

Thus, you can see that to reach a speed equal to your exhaust speed, your rocket needs to be about 63% fuel. To reach twice your exhaust speed, your rocket must be 84% fuel. To reach three times your exhaust speed, your rocket must be 95% fuel, and to reach four times your exhaust speed, your rocket must be more than 97.6% fuel--and remember that the remaining 2.4% not only includes your payload, but your fuel tanks and engines too!

Because of this, lifting off with the same mass from the Earth does not require six times as much fuel as lifting off from the Moon, but rather e^6--or nearly four hundred--times as much. This is why the LM could land on the Moon using only nine tons of fuel and lift off using only three tons of fuel, while the Saturn V required over three thousand tons of fuel.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2006, 09:13:00 PM by ijuin »

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Moon hoax drivel on Loose Change forum
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2006, 10:57:31 PM »
Quote
7. I saved the best for last. At 25 seconds into the flight, the astronauts report "1500 feet." That works out to 41 miles per hour. Remember, 1500 feet is a quarter mile and a human sprinter can run that in under a minute (20 mph). Meanwhile, the escape velocity for the moon is roughly 5000 mph as per Wiki. You know the Earth's escape velocity is like Mach 12 and the moon is 1/6 mass. Definitely a lot higher than 40mph.
Let's work out the Newtonian equation for this, assuming constant acceleration (which will do well enough for a rough estimate since the ascent stage burns only about five percent of its fuel during the first 25 seconds).

1500 feet is about 455 meters.

d = 1/2 * a * t^2 (distance is one half of acceleration times the square of time--look familiar?)

455 = 1/2 * a * (25)^2

455 = 1/2 * a * 625

1.45 = a

Thus, the LM would have been accelerating upwards at approximately a meter and a half per second per second. The LM ascent stage massed about 4550 kg at launch (minus a few dozen kg for trash left behind on the surface, but plus a few dozen kg for lunar samples brought back), and had an engine thrust of 15,570 newtons. Dividing engine thrust by vehicle mass gives us an acceleration of about 3.1 m/s^2, which is approximately equal to the 1.45 m/s^2 observed above plus about 1.6 m/s^2 being lost to lunar gravity. This would imply that the stated altitude of the LM after 25 seconds was consistent with its declared techical specifications (mass, engine power) in a lunar environment.
Don’t forget also that the LM pitched over about ten seconds after liftoff and was therefore not traveling straight up.  Traveling on an incline takes longer to reach a specific height than traveling straight up does.

I programmed a simulation of a LM launch last year and my results had the LM passing 1,500 feet at 28 seconds.  Of course I didn’t know the exact pitch angles so I had to make some educated guesses.  I could have easily been off a bit resulting in the 3-second disparity.

One more thing, why is the guy talking about escape velocity?  The LM ascended to orbit, not escape.


Quote
"But they were accelllllerating...!" I guess the tiny moon lander carries 1/6th the chemical fuel of a Saturn V rocket? Damn, that's a compact package.
Here is a common misconception about rockets. The amount of fuel used does NOT scale linearally with the amount of impulse (mass times acceleration) produced. Rather, it scales exponentially. The rocket equation, derived by Konstantin Tsiolkovsky, is:

delta-v = v(e) * ln (M1/M2)
The LM’s ascent stage had a mass ratio of just about 2 and the engine had a specific impulse of 311 seconds.  This gives us a delta-v of,

delta-v = 311*9.807*ln (2) = 2,114 m/s.

The LM’s orbital velocity was less than 1,700 m/s.  The extra delta-v provided by the propulsion system was needed to overcome gravity.

Offline DonPMitchell

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Re: Moon hoax drivel on Loose Change forum
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2006, 01:46:24 AM »
These guys are incredibly weak minded.  It's not just that they don't understand all the technical issues.  It's that they fall for wildly impossible conspiracy theories.  They shouldn't have to know anything except common sense about what is probable:

1. Probability that the 21 second thing means the Apollo program was faked = 0.00000001%
2. Probability that it's some misunderstanding on your part = 99.9999999%

These are the same people who now believe that the 9/11 act was carried out by the US government to bolster the Bush administration.  Like you could ever do something that psychopathic and keep it a secret.

Chalk it up to "Global Dumbing".  The increased levels of CO2 in the atmosphere must just make some people stupid.
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Offline Obviousman

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Re: Moon hoax drivel on Loose Change forum
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2006, 04:46:23 AM »
Thank you kind Sirs!

I posted that with my own additions:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4560&st=2010&#entry6802298

BTW, I still have problems viewing the forum (that's why I'm rarely here anymore). But I did notice something:

- When there are only two lines of text, the browser coverts it to one line and cuts off the end.

- When there are more than two lines of text, I get the normal 'window' with scroll bars.

Netscape 7.02
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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Moon hoax drivel on Loose Change forum
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2006, 09:51:53 AM »
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BTW, I still have problems viewing the forum

What is your screen resolution (800x600, 1024x768, etc.), and what operating system are you using (I'm assuming it's some form of Windows)?

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Netscape 7.02

Can you try another browser and report what you see? I need to know whether Netscape is to blame. I've viewed the forum in IE 6 and 7 (beta), Firefox, and Opera and haven't seen the bugs you have reported. I have seen posts get cut off, but only when they are right at the boundry between requiring scrollbars and not requiring them.

The forum is designed to use scrollbars if something like a large picture or long hyperlink is posted so that it won't distort the entire forum (requiring left-right scrolling). The various browsers handle this feature differently (some worse than others) but it is preferable to side-scrolling.
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Offline ijuin

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Re: Moon hoax drivel on Loose Change forum
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2006, 09:23:42 PM »

Don’t forget also that the LM pitched over about ten seconds after liftoff and was therefore not traveling straight up.  Traveling on an incline takes longer to reach a specific height than traveling straight up does.

I programmed a simulation of a LM launch last year and my results had the LM passing 1,500 feet at 28 seconds.  Of course I didn’t know the exact pitch angles so I had to make some educated guesses.  I could have easily been off a bit resulting in the 3-second disparity.

<snip>

The LM’s ascent stage had a mass ratio of just about 2 and the engine had a specific impulse of 311 seconds.  This gives us a delta-v of,

delta-v = 311*9.807*ln (2) = 2,114 m/s.

The LM’s orbital velocity was less than 1,700 m/s.  The extra delta-v provided by the propulsion system was needed to overcome gravity.


Thank you for adding those details. I was mainly focused on debunking the post's conceptual errors, but you took it a step further.

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Moon hoax drivel on Loose Change forum
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2006, 01:16:01 AM »
Now the guy is denying that he used the term "escape velocity"... despite the fact that we can quote him. It's hard to believe anyone is that stupid.
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Offline Obviousman

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Re: Moon hoax drivel on Loose Change forum
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2006, 02:19:15 AM »
1024 x 768 on a CRT, Win XP SP2.
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Offline Bob B.

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Re: Moon hoax drivel on Loose Change forum
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2006, 07:57:51 AM »
Quote
3. There is a 1.3 second time delay from the earth to the moon. Yet the astronaut says "Houston, we're on our way" almost exactly 1.3 seconds after liftoff. So he said this immediately when the engine fired?  How strange. I say this because the 3-2-1 audio appears to be synced with the Houston side of the feed. It's synced to one side or the other, you can't have it both ways. But ~50 feet in the air is exactly when the viewer would expect to hear "we're on our way."
This guy doesn’t realize that almost all the voices in the video are of the astronauts.  I hear the CAPCOM in Houston speak only around the 21-22 sec mark.  Everything else sounds like the astronauts, thus the video is clearly synced with the astronaut audio.  The "Houston, we're on our way" comment occurred about 2 seconds after liftoff.


Quote
"But the camera was powered by baaaaatteries!" I guess the camera only had battery power for 36 seconds of video? Because that's when the video cuts off.
How stupid is this guy?  This video ends at 36 seconds because the person who created the clip decided to stop it at 36 seconds.  The camera continued to transmit video well after this time until the batteries did eventually run out of power.


Quote
6. Houston says "30 seconds" at 21 seconds into the flight. Oops. He must have been reading the wrong clock. He says it at *exactly* 30 seconds into the video.
It’s not Houston saying 30 seconds, it is one of the astronauts.  And why does the guy assume it is in reference to the elapsed time since liftoff?  The astronaut could be referring to any number of things, such as an event that is to occur at 30 seconds.


Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Moon hoax drivel on Loose Change forum
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2006, 08:54:55 AM »
1024 x 768 on a CRT, Win XP SP2.

Same as me then. The only thing I can suggest is to try a different browser. Netscape is now up to version 8 if you want to stick to Netscape. Firefox is very similar to Netscape (they shared a common heritage for a while) and it's updated often.

The forum uses some code that only newer browsers can handle properly, so short of me overhauling the code or replacing it completely there is not much I can do.
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Offline DonPMitchell

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Re: Moon hoax drivel on Loose Change forum
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2006, 10:23:56 AM »
It's surprisingly difficult to create web pages that behave the same way on all browsers (IE, Firefox, Opera, Safari, Netscape, ...).  It seems that W3C did not do a very good job of specifying how style sheets and other web semantics work.  They also made some bad mistakes, so browsers have to wing it to make most pages work properly.

I stick with IE, because it is still the majority browser and most websites have to accomidate.  My own homepage (www.MentalLandscape.com) doesn't display properly with Firefox, but I still have it installed for occasional use.  Some people make their pages only work with Firefox, as there is something of a politcial movement associated with it.
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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Moon hoax drivel on Loose Change forum
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2006, 12:08:03 PM »
I try to keep things as strict to the W3C standards as possible, and for the most part everything I do should look the same in all browsers. But the forum software uses some more advanced coding that some older browsers will have difficulty with. The scrolling feature that the forum uses is a good idea... there's nothing more annoying to me than having to scroll left-right because someone posted a large picture... but unfortunately it isn't handled the same way by all browsers.

It is the makers of the browsers that have decided to interpret the standards differently, and especially in Microsofts case, have even decided to create their own non-standard HTML code. This creates the problem of something working in one browser but not the other. (To be fair to Microsoft though, they created their "non-standard codes" in the early days of the web in the hopes that it would be adopted by the W3C as standards.)

I like Firefox because it follows the W3C standards closely and because they update it more than once every 2-4 years (whenever a new version of Windows is released). IE6 is, what, three years old now? The newest version of Firefox was released at the end of July.

Edited to add: The SMF software is due for a major update in the fall (I think) so hopefully that will solve some of the problems people are having.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2006, 12:14:43 PM by LunarOrbit »
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Offline jdbenner

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Re: Moon hoax drivel on Loose Change forum
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2006, 03:23:39 PM »
3. There is a 1.3 second time delay from the earth to the moon. Yet the astronaut says "Houston, we're on our way" almost exactly 1.3 seconds after liftoff. So he said this immediately when the engine fired? How strange. I say this because the 3-2-1 audio appears to be synced with the Houston side of the feed. It's synced to one side or the other, you can't have it both ways. But ~50 feet in the air is exactly when the viewer would expect to hear "we're on our way."

What does the 1.3 second time delay have to do with any thing?  Doesn't the outher concider that the camera feed has the same distance to travel as the audio feed?  The only time a time delay would be apparent is when a two way conversation is occurring. (responce time, radar echo, etc)
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