Everyone knows it was impossible to land on the moon

[hyu2004]

Everyone knows it was impossible to land on the moon

After finishing reading your great article, I am still NOT convinced by your various viewpoints. I think the greatest challenges for the journey to the moon is neither safe launching nor moon orbitting. We all agree that U.S. had technologies successfully launching space rockets into space and making them on the way to the moon in 1960s. The greatest challenges are how to make safe landing on the moon and returning to earth. As spacecraft orbits the moon, it must keep awesome high speed ; then, the landing module is dropped with such awesome high speed. Note the moon has no atmosphere, there's no way opening parachutes to reduce gravity impact unless the U.S. had secretly owned some sorts of unseen anti-gravity technologies. Without these technologies, any landing attempt will result in crashes. The landing module has virtually no power or very little power. Even after landing, that also makes it impossible to self-lift from the moon surface, again precisely track the spacecraft on the moon orbit, then finally dock it successfully. Unless mankinds acquire anti-gravity devices ( perhaps from intelligence aliens ), I doubt it is always impossible for the moon landing.

[Bob B.]

NASA did have an anti-gravity device of sorts, the LM's rocket engine.  While in lunar orbit the spacecraft was moving only about 1.6 km/s, which is many times less than a spacecraft in Earth orbit.  The LM's engine could easily provide enough propulsion to slow from 1.6 km/s to a soft landing on the Moon.  You must also realize that the LM was made as lightweight as possible and burned up about half its initial mass in propellant during the descent.  Furthermore, the Moon's surface gravity is only 1/6th that of Earth.  As the LM approached the lunar surface its weight in lunar gravity was less than 3,000 pounds.  It therefore required no more than 3,000 pounds of thrust to allow it to hover over the surface and gently touchdown.  The LM's descent engine was capable of producing a maximum thrust of 10,000 pounds, thus it was throttled down to about 30% thrust for the landing.  From a rocketry standpoint, a landing on the Moon was well within the capability of 1960s technology.

For liftoff only the top portion of the LM returned to orbit.  This part was very small and lightweight with about half of its mass being propellant.  This ratio of propellant was just the right amount needed to produce the change in velocity required to return to orbit, recalling that we need to get to only 1.6 km/s.  A rocket launching from Earth has to reach 7.8 km/s and also has to push itself trough the air and rise above the atmosphere.  The lack of an atmosphere on the Moon actually simplifies the problem and allows the LM the achieve orbit at a much lower altitude.

I have studied the LM's capabilities and the maneuvers it had to perform in considerable detail.  I can report that all the numbers check out and the calculations confirm nicely that the LM was most certainly capable of landing on and taking off from the Moon.  There is no reason whatsoever to believe the LM was incapable of doing the things NASA said it did.

This will be my last post in this thread for a couple days because I’m going out of town for the weekend.  If you wish to discuss this more I will oblige after I return home.

[Bob B.]

hyu2004,

Please, please, please stop posting this topic in every forum -- once is enough.  Multiple posting is considered spamming and very rude.  I have replied here so please let's make all future posts in this thread.

[LunarOrbit]

hyu2004:

It is not necessary to post the exact same message multiple types in different sections of the forum... it is considered spamming.

Do not do it again.

[Bob B.]

Unless mankinds acquire anti-gravity devices ( perhaps from intelligence aliens ), I doubt it is always impossible for the moon landing.

So then, do you think your own Chinese government is lying about its plans to land on the Moon? How about the Japanese?

China To Test Manned Moon Landing In 2017

Japan sets up team for moon mission

And don't forget the Russians (Soviets) have also landed several probes on the Moon and have even return soil samples to Earth.

Luna programme

[hyu2004]

Dear Bob Braeunig:

Thank you for your quick reply, even though I am still NOT convinced;
but, thank you.

As you mention the LM lift-off capabilities and its lightweight and only
top of its parts would be lift-off and the moon's surface gravity being
about 1/6 that of Earth, imagine LM probably weights several hundred kg
on Earth. Its weight is supposed to be equivalent to that of an
automobile or somewhat less than it. It's lightweight but needs to host
two crews so it must weigh at least several hundred kg. Put it on the
surface of the moon, its weight shrinks to 1/6. Maybe with two crews and
fuels, its overall weight remains at least 100kg on the moon. NASA still
needs sufficient power to lift-off this 100kg object and direct this
object to the lower moon orbit ( How far is it from the surface of the
moon? 100 km? or 150km? ); then, activate the guiding system to track
precisely whereabout the spacecraft is? And the spacecraft orbitting the
moon maintains 1.6km/s ( 1.6 km per second? Its speed is still
considered as awesome since a jet plane only has the speed about 600-800
km per hour ). How can a lift-off object capture such an ultra high
speed spacecraft on the lower moon orbit and dock it without any danger?
Don't you believe it could be done within 1960s technologies, do you?

You mention the LM descent capabilities with the help of anti-gravity
devices. If such devices have been developed for quite while. Why does
NASA never release these for civilian use? or at least license these to
people who need? Is it top secret? or it was given by intelligent
aliens? What is NASA afraid for?

The entire Appollo plan is too much risky and expensive. Any reasonable
government on this planet can only plan it on papers but can't afford to
play it. Everyone knows it was impossible to land on the moon during 1960s.

Sincerely;

Hung-Hsuan Yu
From Taiwan, Republic Of China

[sparkmaster]

Oooo-Weeee-Ooooo...

[DonPMitchell]

Let's see what Sir Isaac Newton has to say about this:

Mass of Apollo LM: 14696 kg fully fueled
 Â                   4173 kg fuel exhuasted
Thrust of Engine: 44041 kiloNewtons
 Â                   311 seconds of Specific Impulse
 Â                  3048 m/sec exhaust velocity

From Tsilokovsky's equation: delta V = Exhaust Velocity * log(mass fueled/mass empty)
                                     = 3.8 km/sec

So the LM can changes its velocity by a maximum of 3.8 km/sec, while its orbital velocity is 1.6 km/sec.  Seems like there is easily enough energy there to land on the Moon with a rocket.


 

[hyu2004]

Dear Bob Braeunig:

Thank you for your quick reply, even though I am still NOT convinced; but, thank you.

As you mention the LM lift-off capabilities and its lightweight and only top of its parts would be lift-off and the moon's surface gravity being about 1/6 that of Earth, imagine LM probably weights several hundred kg on Earth. Its weight is supposed to be equivalent to that of an automobile or somewhat less than it. It's lightweight but needs to host two crews so it must weigh at least several hundred kg. Put it on the surface of the moon, its weight shrinks to 1/6. Maybe with two crews and fuels, its overall weight remains at least 100kg on the moon. NASA still needs sufficient power to lift-off this 100kg object and direct this object to the lower moon orbit ( How far is it from the surface of the moon? 100 km? or 150km? ); then, activate the guiding system to track precisely whereabout the spacecraft is? And the spacecraft orbiting the moon maintains 1.6km/s ( 1.6 km per second? Its speed is still considered as awesome since a jet plane only has the speed about 600-800 km per hour ). How can a lift-off object capture such an ultra high speed spacecraft on the lower moon orbit and dock it without any danger? Don't you believe it could be done within 1960s technologies, do you?

You mention the LM descent capabilities with the help of anti-gravity devices. If such devices have been developed for quite while. Why does NASA never release these for civilian use? or at least license these to people who need? Is it top secret? or it was given by intelligent aliens? What is NASA afraid for?

The entire Apollo program is too much risky and expensive. Any reasonable government on this planet can only plan it on papers but can't afford to play it. Everyone knows it was impossible to land on the moon during 1960s.

Sincerely;

Hung-Hsuan Yu
From Taiwan, Republic Of China

[jdbenner]

 

[Ottawan]

I think what we have here is a failure to communicate. The empirical statement "everybody knows it was impossible to land on the moon" simply means we are dealing with an individual who has a closed mind on the subject as his mind has already been made up.

In addition to a probable language barrier I do not see this individual understanding any of the technical replies to his statements.

Closed case.

[hyu2004]

I know your language quite well. Here people use either plain texts or plain technical texts. There's no probable language barrier.

Some allegations accuse NASA's moon landing stories " The whole things are fake ". I think the burden of proof falls upon NASA, not people who make such allegations.

[Ottawan]

Why should NASA have to "prove" to you that the moon landings were real?

Many of the members of this board are old enough to have lived through the Apollo missions and witnessed the moon walks.

How much research have you done into the missions before coming to the conclusion that it was all impossible?

Apparently not "everyone" believes as you.

I should think that the burden of proof falls on you to disprove what the whole world knows is historical fact.

[hyu2004]

I think this discussion is gone mad. We are exploring the truth so the " probable language barrier " or nationality isn't the major concern.

My name is Hung-Hsuan Yu. It's my legal name. I've been in the U.S. for seven years and kept Green Card, although I am living in Taiwan. Based upon my American experiences, I am convinced that American are great and just people. Actually the majority of such allegations regarding fake moon landing stories are made by your own people, not foreigners. As confronting this issue, I believe I am unbiased since I belong to your own people, too. I am a U.S. permanent resident so nationality doesn't affect my judgement. We are exploring the truth, no matter who is our fellow American, who is Chinese.

[hyu2004]

The Chinese and Japanese moon landing programs will be doomed. They are all mission impossible within 20 years. Time will tell us what the outcome should be.

Again, let me tell that Taiwan and communist China are competing rivals although both sides are Chinese societies. Do not say " Your own Chinese government " The Chinese government refers to PRC ( People's Republic Of China ). Taiwan and its people never subject to communist's rule. There were civil wars in mainland of China during 1930-1940s. Our government was defeated by the communists led by Mao Zedong and subsequently fled to Taiwan under the leadership of the paramount military leader, Chiang Kai-Shek in 1949; therefore, the Chinese government ( PRC ) is NOT our government.